Searching for a lore Accurate Size of Mumakil

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by R.R.J Tolkien

Yes it was large enough for a tower as were African and Asian elephants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_elephant

I think being on the back of a large elephant alone provides the purpose of observation. A tower would add protection i think. I am not so sure how high it could be and stable upon such a beast.

Note that historical war-elephants were typically the smaller Asian species- so the tower is no indication of vast size. On the other hand, we have the author's statement (following on from your quote) that-

...the Mûmak of Harad was indeed a beast of vast bulk, and the like of him dors not walk now in Middle-earth; his kin that live now in latter days are but memories of his girth and majesty.

So we are talking about something *significantly* larger than a modern elephant. Beyond that it's hard to say exactly how large a creature Tolkien had in mind. My personal image is of something rather smaller than the movie versions, however. Perhaps it's a practical issue- I mean how would you tame those things in the first place?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Perhaps it's a practical issue- I mean how would you tame those things in the first place?

To quote a wise old sage, "size matters not". Why couldn't a giant beast be tamed as a smaller one: with food?

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Note that historical war-elephants were typically the smaller Asian species- so the tower is no indication of vast size. On the other hand, we have the author's statement (following on from your quote) that-

So we are talking about something *significantly* larger than a modern elephant. Beyond that it's hard to say exactly how large a creature Tolkien had in mind. My personal image is of something rather smaller than the movie versions, however. Perhaps it's a practical issue- I mean how would you tame those things in the first place?

Good post. I think that quote fits into tolkiens “A large elephant of prehistoric size.” But i am not sure it demands a "significantly" larger beast.

...the Mûmak of Harad was indeed a beast of vast bulk, and the like of him dors not walk now in Middle-earth; his kin that live now in latter days are but memories of his girth and majesty.

Is this quote saying that the mumakil seen by sam is a smaller version of older descendants? than that would not tell us its size compared to a modern elephant. Since it reads that now walk on middle earth, thus its hard to conclude a comparison with modern elephants. Plus a mumakil the size of my op would be 161% times the size of an Asian elephant.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by R.R.J Tolkien

Good post. I think that quote fits into tolkiens “A large elephant of prehistoric size.” But i am not sure it demands a "significantly" larger beast.

...the Mûmak of Harad was indeed a beast of vast bulk, and the like of him dors not walk now in Middle-earth; his kin that live now in latter days are but memories of his girth and majesty.

Is this quote saying that the mumakil seen by sam is a smaller version of older descendants? than that would not tell us its size compared to a modern elephant. Since it reads that now walk on middle earth, thus its hard to conclude a comparison with modern elephants. Plus a mumakil the size of my op would be 161% times the size of an Asian elephant.

No, the "now" is from the perspective of a later time (than that of "Lord of the Rings"), and the Mûmak described as "a beast of vast bulk" is what Sam saw (or its kind). That really seems to me the only natural reading. The entire point of that passage is to tell the reader, "hey, this thing was even bigger than modern elephants"

Here's the whole thing together:

Big as a house, much bigger than a house, it looked to him, a grey-clad moving hill. Fear and wonder, maybe, enlarged him in the hobbit's eyes, but the Mûmak of Harad was indeed a beast of vast bulk, and the like of him does not walk now in Middle-earth; his kin that live now in latter days are but memories of his girth and majesty.

Not very helpful for a precise estimate of size, though: "It was really, really big... in fact it was bigger than really really big... OK maybe it wasn't *that* big... but then again, it actually was really, really big..."

[Inziladun]

Ok, after a little research, I found this from the HOME tome The War of the Ring:

'A large elephant of prehistoric size, a war-elephant of the Swertings, is loose, and Sam has gratified a life-long wish to see an Oliphaunt..'

So, 'prehistoric' is naturally a bit ambiguous. But a source I rather respect for scientific accuracy has this estimate of what seems to be reasonably Oliphaunt-like. The possible shoulder height of this creature was about 16ft.

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Ok, after a little research, I found this from the HOME tome The War of the Ring:



So, 'prehistoric' is naturally a bit ambiguous. But a source I rather respect for scientific accuracy has this estimate of what seems to be reasonably Oliphaunt-like. The possible shoulder height of this creature was about 16ft.

good stuff thanks

[Rhun charioteer]

I always felt Sam's description lined up fairly well with the movies and this never bothered me.