Does the Silmarillion Contradict Third age History? How Powerful Were Those First age

[Huinesoron]

Finally and separately, one quote which seems to be a direct counter to the concept of this thread (that the events of the Elder Days are deliberate hyperbole by Tolkien):

Melkor must be made far more powerful in original nature (cf. 'Finrod and Andreth'). The greatest power under Eru (sc. The greatest created power).

Actually the whole essay (part of the Myths Transformed set, dating to about 1960) is fascinating; it includes the new idea that Melkor was never chained, and in fact /couldn't/ be chained - he was too powerful even for all the Valar to restrain him! He surrendered, and was basically put in solitary confinement in Mandos.

hS

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Finally and separately, one quote which seems to be a direct counter to the concept of this thread (that the events of the Elder Days are deliberate hyperbole by Tolkien):



Actually the whole essay (part of the Myths Transformed set, dating to about 1960) is fascinating; it includes the new idea that Melkor was never chained, and in fact /couldn't/ be chained - he was too powerful even for all the Valar to restrain him! He surrendered, and was basically put in solitary confinement in Mandos.

hS

I am sure the fault lies with me as others have come to your conclusion on my op. But I never said the valar were no the most powerful creations by Eru. My op says

“His [melkor] might was greatest of all things in this world.”
-of the ruin of Beleriand

Melkor was the “greatest” “most powerful” and knowledgeable of all the valar the strongest beings outside of Eru [God].

Valar were the strongest creations by eru.


I am just saying that even in these mighty powerful creatures, we see they are not invincible to none valar or even maia. I am as you said also suggesting that hypebole played a role in their description and exaggerated their strength some.

[Huinesoron]

Indeed. My counterpoint is that, in his latest material when he was trying to make the Silm more grounded and realistic, Tolkien explicitly noted that he needed to make Melkor /more/ powerful than he was already shown as being. He didn't want to bring things down to a more primitive state - he wanted to increase the already high power levels of his characters. (The essay is clear that this isn't a weakening of everyone else, either, but definitely a strengthening of Melkor.)

hS

[Eldy]

I think Huinesoron raises a good point. Tolkien's attempts to make "The Silmarillion" more consistent with LOTR and more plausible in certain ways certainly did not mean removing all of the supernatural/mythological elements, nor do I think it would have been necessary to do so to achieve his goal. The theme of decline and the fact that much from the past had been forgotten or degraded is very much present in LOTR. Whether the Star of Eärendil as seen by Sam in the late Third Age should be understood as literally a Silmaril strapped to the forehead of a guy in a magic ship is, I think, questionable (though at the time Tolkien wrote LOTR it probably was), but there's much else that can't be excised from the mythology without actually creating inconsistencies with LOTR, including the Silmarils themselves and most of the qualities ascribed to them.