12 Of the Flight of the Noldor

[Findegil]

To change teh word to Taniquetil is to much of a liberty for me, but I like to the idea of taking this up. But the position where to put it must be discussed.

I don't think that even without mist the Taniquetil could be seen from northern Araman where the Noldor halted and debated and from where Feanor took the ships to cross Belegar. So I do not see that gondowe's positioning of the passage is possible.

I find ArcusCalion's positioning more probalbe, but I would postpone it a view more sentences. As already mentioned for the passage to work the Taniquetil must have been at least in clear weather conditions to be viewable from the geographic point reached by Faenor at that time. As long as he is within Calacirya, I don't think he could see the summit at all, being to near to the cheer walls at the foot of the mountian. Reaching Aqualondë could also be to late since the northern branch of the Pelori probably would block the view. So I think he must be on the northern coast of the Bay of Eldamar. Therefore I would position it as follwos:

§144 Now Fëanor led the Noldor northward, because his first purpose was to follow Morgoth. Moreover, Túna beneath Taniquetil was set nigh to the girdle of Arda, and there the Great Sea was immeasurably wide, whereas ever northward the sundering seas grew narrower, as the waste-land of Araman and the coasts of Middle-earth drew together. FoN-EX-07.7 <Q&E {Most significant, they cite from an ancient legend of the flight the tale that as}As the mists of Araman wrapped the distant mountains of Valinor from the sight of the Noldor, Fëanor raised his hands in token of rejection and cried: 'I go. Neither in light or shadow will I look upon you again, Dahanigwishtilgūn.' So it was recorded, though the writers of the histories no longer knew what he meant. For which reason the strange word may have been ill transmitted. But even so it still bears some likeness to Taniquetil though it can no longer be analysed. (In a few versions, say the Loremasters, it was written dāhanigwiš-telgūn.) >But the hosts had not gone far, ere it came to the mind of Fëanor, over late, that all these great companies, both of the full-grown and war-high and many others, and great store of goods withal, would never overcome the long leagues to the North, nor cross the seas at the last, save with the aid of ships.

I think creating a footnote her is no possibility. Either we take it as it is or we leave it out. And I am inclined to use the alternative reading as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Why can we not create a footnote?

[gondowe]

First of all say that I dont have at hand the texts cause im not at home for a time.
As for the location, this is something I thought in the moment I inserted, but in the proper sentence is said "the distant mountains of Valinor"; in my opinion this is enough to think the Noldor were far from them, and they must be in Araman because "the mists of Araman". Of course in my location Taniquetil is very far away but it was the highest mountain of Arda and in other way of thought it is not neccesary that could be seen, only can curse in its direction.
But, again coul be my erroneous interpretation of english?
As for the word if you want to maintain Dahanigwishtilgūn, in my opinion is neccesary a footnote explain something like this very obscure word and not insert it into the narrative that sounds out of context like (for me) every philological, etc text. But I think is better to change directly in Taniquetil because is a possible explanation into the subcreation not a especulation of us.
Greetings

[Findegil]

gondowe, I can see your reasoning. It is true that the direct sense of these introduction is that the Noldor are fare from the Pelori, which makes your placement more likely. And yes you are also right that Taniquetil is the highes of all mountains, and might be in a flat world, as we propose it, seen from very, very far away.

So that would mean:

§158 Therefore Fëanor halted and the Noldor debated what course they should now take. But soon they began to suffer anguish from the cold, and the clinging mists through which no gleam of star could pierce; and many of them repented of the road and began to murmur, especially those that followed Fingolfin, cursing Fëanor, and naming him as the cause of all the woes of the Eldar. FoN-EX-23.5 <Q&E {Most significant, they cite from an ancient legend of the flight the tale that as}As the mists of Araman wrapped the distant mountains of Valinor from the sight of the Noldor, Fëanor raised his hands in token of rejection and cried: 'I go. Neither in light or shadow will I look upon you again, Dahanigwishtilgūn.' So it was recorded, though the writers of the histories no longer knew what he meant. For which reason the strange word may have been ill transmitted. But even so it still bears some likeness to Taniquetil though it can no longer be analysed. (In a few versions, say the Loremasters, it was written dāhanigwiš-telgūn.) > FoN-EX-24b <Shibboleth Fingolfin {had }prefixed the name Finwë to Ñolofinwë{ before the Exiles reached Middle-earth}. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Noldor after the death of Finwë, and so enraged Fëanor.>

ArcusCalion, there is no direct rule against the creation of a footnote, but up to now we never found a reason good enough to do so. Creating a footnote is a change more serious then it seems at first glance. The authorship of the text lifted into a footnote is obscured in two ways: On an outer view it is no longer clear, if it is the author JRRT writing or us as editors? And on a inside view the same question can be asked. That alone must make us critical. My feeling is that if we can not introduce something into the main text without an explanatory footnote (even so the text of the footnote comes from JRR Tolkien) we should leave it out. The only excaption is if JRR Tolkien used a footnote himself.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

As loathe as I am to admit it, I think Elenwe (and her death) have to go.

This comes from 'Maeglin' (c. 1970) in The War of the Jewels (§12, p. 323):

'Turgon ... had no heir; for Elenwë his wife perished in the crossing of the Helcaraxë': here A has 'Turgon ... had no heir: for his wife, Alairë, was of the Vanyar and would not forsake Valinor'. On the page of jottings that concludes the abandoned later 'Tale of Tuor' (see Unfinished Tales p. 56) a note which I did not include says that 'Alairë remained in Aman'.

So, here we have Alaire as the wife of Turgon and the mother of Idril, and she stays in Aman.

However, the text B(ii) changes 'Alairë' to 'Anairë' (confusingly enough):

The typescript B as typed has 'Alairë', but on both A and B(ii), not on B(i), my father corrected (presumptively in 1970) the name to 'Anairë'.

Thus, it would seem that we should change 'Elenwe' to 'Anaire', but given the fact that there's no alternative name for the wife of Fingolfin (also called Anaire), I think we are justified in keeping 'Alaire' instead.


P.S. Keep in my mind though, some of the changes in general that Tolkien made to the Elven family trees and even the most basic staples of the mythology from 1970 onward were wild - and I have my reservations about keeping them.

[Arvegil145]

Not directly related to this thread - but Tolkien also seems to have abandoned the 'Amarie story' (again, )

This comes from a late note (after 1966) to 'Of Dwarves and Men', The Peoples of Middle-earth (pp. 317-8):

During their dwelling in Nargothrond as refugees he [Celebrimbor] had grown to love Finrod and his wife, and was aghast at the behaviour of his father and would not go with him. He later became a great friend of Celeborn and Galadriel.

Christopher Tolkien follows:

The reference in the first of these notes to the wife of Finrod Felagund is notable, since long before, in the 'Grey Annals', the story had emerged that Felagund had no wife, and that 'she whom he had loved was Amárië of the Vanyar, and she was not permitted to go with him into exile'. That story had in fact been abandoned, or forgotten, but it would return: see the note on Gil-galad, p. 350.

However, the 'note on Gil-galad' that CT references is from August 1965, predating the first note.


So, why did Tolkien seemingly abandon the story of Amarie, and Finrod having no wife? I doubt we'll ever know for sure, but I have a feeling that he intended to return to 'Gil-galad son of Finrod' idea (which I think was also the most longeval of the ideas for Gil-galad's parentage, if I'm not mistaken) - but this is just speculation.

[Findegil]

A reason could be that he wanted to avoid the same storry for the wifes of Felagund and Turgon. When Anairë wife of Turgon stayed in Aman, the wife of Felagund had to go with him into Middle-earth.

Gildor Inglorion from LotR comes to mind another possible reason.

The question with this change is: do we keep the rescue of Idril during the crossing of the ice? Up to now I considered here being a small child at that point, but that might have been wrong from the start.

Respectfully
Findegil