Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin

[ArcusCalion]

In the Athrabeth and in the published Sil77, Finrod dwells in Minas Tirith until the Dagor Bragollach, when he removes to Nargothrond. Are we taking this as the final version? Or leaving it the way it is. I am inclined to leave it the way it is, since it makes more sense logistically for Finrod to make a whole city and then live there, as is said several times in the narrative.

[Tyr]

Originally Posted by Findegil

NG-EX-04.3: I think we should extant Tolkiens short hand.

NG-EX-04.5: The ‘?’ seems to refer to the fact that phaya is not a verb. So I removed both.

Hi all; the v being interpreted as shorthand is actually the radical symbol √.

[ArcusCalion]

omg good catch Tyr!! Tolkien also used * as a root marker in later writings, so I'll change it to that.

[Findegil]

Good catch Tyr! I worked only from a scan and never checked the original text. So we can either let the sign stand or change it to 'root'. So I am inclinde to let it stand in this footnote.

ArcusCalion, the * [asterix] form is not really the same as a √ (even so in an artificial language the difference is only a fancy of the author): a √ is found in the recorded past of a language while the * form is only reconstructed by the 'loremasters'.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Fin, this is true but in Q&E the form, for example, *KWENE is used for roots. In the Shibboleth notes on the sons of Feanor, the roots are simply capitalized, like PHIN. However, in Words, Phrases, and Passages, the roots are written with the radical, but the same roots are repeated in Q&E (a later document) with the asterisk, alongside reconstructed forms by loremasters also using an asterisk. Therefore it seems the published texts are inconsistent on the formation of these roots. We should standardize them. As you say, the asterisk is already used for the reconstructed forms, so perhaps we should go with the radical. If that is the case, then I think we need to standardize it across all documents, from the Shibboleth name notes to the Q&E material to the notes on PHAN and the Osanwe. In addition, in every other setting the roots are capitalized, so should we do that here with these two?

[Findegil]

A standardisation is a good idea. And for me capitalisation is the better choice, since it would easiliy allow reconstrucetd roots by asterix and captalisation.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

While scouring Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn for any more bits I could use, I found something in Appendix E that I figured we were lacking at the moment: the translation and etymology of Celeborn's name. Therefore, as this is his first appearance in the narrative, I figured we could add it in here as a footnote, like so:

NG-EX-04.92<Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn In Doriath {she}Galadriel met Celeborn, NG-EX-04.93 <The Names of Galadriel and Celeborn [Footnote: {the}The ancient stem of the Elvish word for ‘silver’ was kyelep-, becoming celeb in Sindarin. {, telep-, telpe in Telerin, and tyelep-, tyelpe in Quenya. But in Quenya the form telpe became usual, through the influence of Telerin; for the Teleri prized silver above gold, and their skill as silversmiths was esteemed even by the Noldor. Thus Telperion was more commonly used than Tyelperion as the name of the White Tree of Valinor. (Alatáriel was also Telerin; its Quenya form was Altáriel.)
The name Celeborn when first devised was intended to mean "Silver Tree"; it was the name of the Tree of Tol Eressëa (The Silmarillion p.59). Celeborn's close kin had "tree-names" (p.244): Galadhon his fa¬ther, Galathil his brother, and Nimloth his niece, who bore the same name as the White Tree of Númenor. In my father's latest philological writings, however, the meaning "Silver Tree" was abandoned: the}The second element of Celeborn (as the name of a person) was derived from the ancient adjectival form ornā ‘uprising, tall,’ rather than from the related noun ornē ‘tree.’ (Ornê was originally applied to straighter and more slender trees such as birches, whereas stouter, more spreading trees such as oaks and beeches were called in the ancient language galada ‘great growth;’ but this distinction was not always observed in Quenya and disappeared in Sindarin, where all trees came to be called galadh, and orn fell out of common use, surviving only in verse and songs and in many names both of persons and of trees.)]> grandson of Elmo the brother of Thingol>