2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees

[ArcusCalion]

Another addition from MT note on the stars:

..... for the very stones and waters were hallowed.
VT-EX-04.25 <MT {Later, when the Valar took refuge from Melkor, and the imminent ruin of Arda, and built and fortified Valinor in Aman, it} It was Varda who made the great dome above Valinor, to keep out any spirits or spies of Melkor. It was made as a simulacrum of the true firmament (Tar-menel), and the patterns were therein repeated, but with apparent stars (or 'sparks': tinwi) of greater relative size to the total visible area. So that the lesser firmament of Valinor (Nur-menel) was very brilliant.
From this work (chiefly: but also her original demiurgic labors [and later Star-making] were included) she was called ‘Star-kindler'. [Footnote: {elen}[Elen] properly referred to the real stars of Eä (but could also naturally be transferred to their imagines). The words tinwë, ñillë’ (tin ‘spark', ngil ‘silver glint’) and Sindarin tim, gil referred properly to the Valinorian imagines. Hence Quenya Tintallë from tinta cause to sparkle, but also Elentári Queen of Stars'; Sindarin Elbereth, but also Gilthoniel.]>
Therefore the Valar and ......

I know Aiwendil expressed some reservations about the Dome of Varda, so this addition might be somewhat contested.

[Elvellon]

Hey everybody. The work here is so much deeper and more impressive than I could have imagined! I hope I'm not intruding by resurrecting a finished thread for a few tiny things I found, but I want to be helpful all the same. I'm new to participating in this project, so apologies if I don't have the procedure quite down yet...

In VT-EX-36b and VT-EX-36.5 there are two instances of "Iluvatar" instead of "Ilúvatar".

Also in VT-EX-36.5, there is "Yavanna Palúrien" where it should be "Yavanna Kementári".

In VT-EX-38 "elves and men" is used. As far as I know, Elves is always capitalized. Lowercase "men" is used sometimes in the Silmarillion, but I would probably capitalize it here.

In VT-LT-06 "Avarthar" should be Avathar.

In VT-LT-14 "labored" should be "laboured" and "humors" should be "humours".

In general VT-LT-14 seems to be largely a repetition of Vala-04.2 in the Valaquenta - specifically "she dwells alone," and "her halls are west of West, nigh to the borders of the World".

Edit: I somehow missed the discussion of VT-LT-14 on page 1, so my last comment can probably be ignored. However, I did want to address one other thing in VT-LT-13c which is the changing tenses in the paragraph. Here is what I would suggest if it is actually a problem:

Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither {are}[were] they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly {bring}[brought] them here; and {Fui}[Námo] {reads}[read] their hearts.

[Findegil]

Thank you for pointing out the typos.

About VL-LT-13c: I am hestistant to change these. Even if Aman is removed when the text was written or is read, still the fëa of Men would go to that hall. Such shifts in the tense used are found in some palces when Tolkien writes about Valinor/Aman.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

I still think we should adopt the 'Indis, daughter of Ingwe' conception, as per PoME (pp. 364-5) - granted, it's not explicit, but in the light of NoME I fail to see any other option: after all, in all the previous versions of Indis and her relationship to Ingwe the genealogical distance was minimal (i.e. 'sister of Ingwe' or 'niece of Ingwe').

[Findegil]

Indis as sister/sister-daughter/daughter of Ingwë: This was discussded under DoV-FM-04 & DoV-FM-05, but of course without the input from NoME. And if we take up the change it will as well make a change necessary in Capter "6 OF Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië / Here are some of the chief names of Finwë and his descendants: / 1. [The names of Finwë and his spouses]"Where Indis is named "the daughter of King Ingwë's sister". I will mark that passage as EPE-EX-21.07.
Now to the point itself: In the light of NoME I agree that Indis as the daugther of Ingwë is probably better. Tha means we would have:

... His second wife was Indis, which means 'great or valiant woman'. No other names are recorded. EPE-EX-21.07 She is said to have been the daughter of King Ingwë{'s sister}.
...
...
...
§23 It came to pass that after three years more Finwë took as second wife Indis the fair. She was in all ways unlike Míriel. She was not of the Noldor but of the Vanyar, being the DoV-FM-04b {sister}[daughter] of Ingwë; and she was golden-haired and tall and exceedingly swift of foot. She did not labour with her hands, but made music and wove words into song; and there was ever light and mirth about her while the bliss of Aman lasted.
...
...
...
§27 In one year from their meeting upon the Mountain Finwë, King of the Noldor, wedded Indis, DoV-FM-05b{sister}[daughter] of Ingwë; and the Vanyar and Noldor for the most part rejoiced. ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Just for the sake of transparency, here's the entire note 53 to the Shibboleth from the PoME (pp. 364-5), including CT's commentary in the brackets:

When Aragorn, descended in long line from Elros, wedded Arwen in the third union of Men and Elves, the lines of all the Three Kings of the High Elves (Eldar), Ingwë, Finwë, and Olwë and Elwë were united and alone preserved in Middle-earth. Since Lúthien was the noblest, and the most fair and beautiful, of all the Children of Eru remembered in ancient story, the descendants of that union were called 'the children of Lúthien'. The world has grown old in long years since then, but it may be that their line has not yet ended. (Lúthien was through her mother, Melian, descended also from the Máyar, the people of the Valar, whose being began before the world was made. Melian alone of all those spirits assumed a bodily form, not only as a raiment but as a permanent habitation in form and powers like to the bodies of the Elves. This she did for love of Elwë; and it was permitted, no doubt because this union had already been foreseen in the beginning of things, and was woven into the Amarth of the world, when Eru first conceived the being of his children, Elves and Men, as is told (after the manner and according to the understanding of his children) in that myth that is named The Music of the Ainur.)

[As is said in the text at this point Arwen was descended from Finwë both in the line of Fingolfin (through Elrond) and in the line of Finarfin (through Celebrían); but she was also descended from Elwë (Thingol) through Elrond's mother Elwing, and through Galadriel's mother Eärwen from Olwë of Alqualondë. She was not directly descended from Ingwë, but her fore-mother Indis was (in earlier texts) the sister of Ingwë (X.261-2, etc.), or (in the present work, p. 343) the daughter of his sister. It is hard to know what my father had in mind when he wrote the opening of this note.]

- emphasis mine


Again, while CT doesn't know what to make of the beginning of this note, he might not have been aware of the NoME texts at the time, in which Indis was depicted as the daughter of Ingwe in multiple instances.


However, I'm not sure about the dating of the note - given that it was (presumably?) attached to the rest of the 'Shibboleth' texts, one would think that it dates from around the same time (c. 1968/70)...yet, one thing that bugs me is the mention of the term Máyar (a term that, to the best of my knowledge, was only used by Tolkien in the c. 1957-60 period): but I'm not sure how that could be the case, given the context of the note.