2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees

[Findegil]

VT-EX-01b: Why did we skip “But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West”? Okay we have to end the sentence with a full point istaead of coneccting it to the next by a semi-colon, but is that alone enough?

VT-EX-01b & VT-LQ-01.5:
- Why did we skip “But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West”? Okay we have to end the sentence with a full point istaead of coneccting it to the next by a semi-colon, but is that alone enough?
- Are not “…;for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of {the} Night. “ and “But on the further side lay the Outer Sea, which encircles the Kingdom of Arda, and is called by the Elves VT-LQ-02 {Vaiya}[Ekkaia]. How wide is that sea none know but the {gods}[Valar], and beyond it are the Walls of the World to fence out the Void and the Eldest Darkness.” redundant?
- I think, that it is no question that the “Walls of the World” separate Creation from Uncreation as you put it in all cosmologies. But Eä signifies all the Creation. So it can not be said that beyond Ekkaia is Eä, because Eä includes Ekkaia and the rest of Arda (if Ekkaia can still be called a part of Arda). Howsoever we do not have to explain the cosmology, we “just” have too make the sentence in question fit to what we know for sure about the cosmology we work with. But anyhow that sentence most not be an exact listing of all things between one point and the other and that the Walls of the World were beyond Ekkaia is no question.
So I think we should change all this probably in this way:

VT-EX-01c <AAm Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the {Gods}[Valar] upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and they had no abiding place upon the face of the earth. Therefore they removed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, which was westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the <AAm* ancient> world; for its{ west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night. But the} east-shores{ of Aman} are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West. VT-EX-02 <LT Then said Manwë: ‘Now will we make a dwelling speedily and a bulwark against evil.’ So they fared over {Arvalin}[Avathar] and saw a wide open space beyond, reaching for unknown leagues{ even to the Outer Seas}.> VT-LQ-01.5 <LQ But on the further side lay the Outer Sea, which encircles the Kingdom of Arda, and is called by the Elves VT-LQ-02 {Vaiya}[Ekkaia]. How wide is that sea none know but the {gods}[Valar], and beyond it are the Walls of the World to fence out the Void and the Eldest Darkness.>
VT-EX-03b <LT There, said Aulë, …

VT-EX-03b: posted by Aiwendil:

I also move the detail of the world rumbling in the gloom to what I feel is a more natural place.

I am sorry, but that place doesn’t feel right to me. May be we should move it even more. What about:

VT-EX-03b <LT There, said Aulë, would be a place well suited to great building and to a fashioning of realms of delight; wherefore the Valar and all their folk first gathered the most mighty rocks and stones from {Arvalin}[Avathar] and reared therewith> <AAm upon the shores of the Sea {they raised} the Pelóri, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon earth. {And above all the mountains of the Pelóri was that height which was called Taniquetil,}> VT-EX-03.01<LT and the world rumbled in the gloom and {Melko}[Melkor] heard the noises of their labour.> VT-EX-03.02<LT Aulë indeed it was himself who laboured {for seven ages} at Manwë’s bidding in the piling of {Taniquetil} the greatest mountain,> VT-EX-03.03<AAm upon whose summit Manwë set his throne before the doors of the domed halls of Varda{.},> VT-LQ-02.5 <LQ Taniquetil the Elves name that holy mountain, and Oiolossë Everlasting Whiteness, and Elerrína Crowned with Stars, and many names beside. But the Sindar spoke of it in their later tongue as Amon Uilos.>

VT-EX-03.1: We can as well use here “Mountains of Aman” as in the paragraph before and “towered mightily between their land and the world the Valar drew breath”

VT-LT-06: If we replace “Murmuran” by “Lórien” then we should replace at the beginning of the sentence “Lórien” by “Irmo”, otherwise sentence reads awkward. But why do we remove “Murmuran”?
By the way: we used “Lóriën” up to now, at least for the place in Valinor and the Valar.
The reinsertion of Silindirin I would do in this way:

… them much in his enchantments. VT-LT-06.5 {Amidmost}[Within] of those pleasances was set {within}[amidmaost] a ring of shadowy cypress towering high that deep vat {Silindrin}[Silindirin]. There it lay in a bed of pearls, and its surface unbroken was shot with silver flickerings, and the shadows of the trees lay on it, and the Mountains of Valinor could see their faces mirrored there. Lóriën gazing upon it saw many visions of mystery pass across its face, and that he suffered never to be stirred from its sleep save when Silmo came noiselessly with a silver urn to draw a draught of its shimmering cools, and fared softly thence to water the roots of Silpion ere the tree of gold grew hot.>
VT-LT-07<LT Otherwise was the mind of Tulkas, …

I exchanged “amidmost” and “within” because Silindirin can no longer be “amidmost” of Lóriën.

VT-LT-11: I agree that we should not call Oromë any longer Yavanna’s son, but I think we can edit this in a lighter way:

VT-LT-11b{And}[Now] Oromë tamer of beasts <LT {Now Oromë} had a vast domain and it was beloved by him, and no less by {Palúrien}[Yavanna]{ his mother}. Behold, the groves of trees they planted upon the plain of Valinor and even upon the foothills of the mountains have no compare on Earth. …

VT-LT-11.5: Here we should add Culullin back in:

… Its innermost solitude is walled with roses, and this is the place best beloved of that fair lady of the Spring. VT-EX-11.7 Amidmost of this place of odorous air did Aulë set long ago that cauldron, gold {Kulullin}[Culullin], filled ever with the radiance of Laurelin like shining water, and thereof he contrived a fountain so that all the garden was full of the health and happiness of its pure light. Birds sang there all the year with the full throat of spring, and flowers grew in a riot of blossom and of glorious life. Yet VT-EX-13 was none ever of that splendour spilled from the vat of gold save when Vána's maidens led by {Urwen}[Árië] left that garden at the waxing of Silpion to water the roots of the tree of flame; but by the fountain it was always light with the amber light of day, as bees made busy about the roses, and there trod Vána lissomly while larks sang above her golden head.>

The Tree of Amalion
VT-LT-12b<LT So fair were these abodes …

VT-LT-13b: I am inclined to move the following section from Valaquenta about Nienna to the end of the actual chapter:

Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.

I think that the passage about Nienna in the Valaquenta can stand without this it would read then:

… and often the Valar come themselves to Lóriën and there find repose and easing of the burden of Arda.
Mightier than Estë is Nienna, sister of Vala-04.2 {the Fëanturi}<Vq2 Námo>; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor. So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began. But she does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope. Vala-04.3{Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.}
Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas, …

In Of Valinor and the two Trees I would add it thus:

VT-LT-12b<LT So fair were these abodes and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor that {Vefantur}[Námo] and {Fui}[Vairë] his wife and his sister Nienna of tears might not endure to stay there long, but fared away far to the northward of those regions, where beneath the roots of the most cold and northerly of the Mountains of Valinor, that rise here again almost to their height nigh {Arvalin}[Avathar], they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the {Gods}[Valar] might be housed to their liking, he did so, and they and all their shadowy folk aided him. Very vast were those caverns that they made stretching even down under the Shadowy Seas, and they are full of gloom and filled with echoes, and all that deep abode is known to {Gods}[Valar] and Elves as Mandos. There in a sable hall sat {Vefantur}[Námo]{, and he called that hall with his own name Vê}. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, wherein there lay some gleaming drops of the pale dew of Silpion: it was draped with dark vapours and its floors and columns were of jet. Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain - and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while.{
}There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might again {be born into their children}[take body], and go forth to laugh and sing again.>
VT-LT-13b<LT{The}And another hall {that she loved best}there was, one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[the first]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui}. Therein before {her}Namo’s black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Námo] reads their hearts.>

Wickedness
VT-EX-39 <Ainu {Her}Nienna’s halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.>

I think that now I have catched all points I see in this chapter.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Just a few thoughts for now - more will follow.

VT-LQ-01.5: The cosmology is a thorny problem. I tend to think that the project of explicitly defining the cosmology in our version (which is to say, the cosmology as envisioned in the early 1950s) is quite hopeless. It's a shame that there is no later version of the Ambarkanta; without one, I don't think we can build up a completely clear and coherent picture.

In AAm, Christopher Tolkien notes the following statements with cosmological implications:

§1 Ëa is 'the World that is'; the Valar are 'the Powers of Ëa'.
§11 After ages of labour 'in the great halls of Ëa the Valar descended into Arda in the beginning of its being'.
§13 Tulkas came to Arda 'out of distant regions of Ëa'.
§17 Melkor gathered spirits 'out of the voids of Ea.'; and he 'drew near again unto Arda, and looked down upon it'.
§18 The Valar did not perceive the dark shadow 'cast from afar by Melkor'.
§19 Melkor 'passed over the borders of Ëa' > 'passed over the Walls of the Night upon the borders of Arda' > 'passed over the Walls of the Night' (note 19).
§23 The Outer Sea 'encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night'.

It seems then to me that the Walls of Night (or Walls of the World) enclose Arda, not Ea. §23 would suggest that we have Arda - Outer Sea - Walls of Night - other parts of Ea.

Christopher Tolkien's further discussion of the cosmology here has great bearing on our issue, especially:

Amid all the ambiguities (most especially, in the use of the word 'World'), the testimony seems to be that in these texts the Ambarkanta world-image survived at least in the conception of the Outer Sea extending to the Walls of the World, now called the Walls of the Night - though the Walls have come to be differently conceived (see also p. 135, §168). Now in the revision of 'The Silmarillion' made in 1951 the phrase in QS §12 (V.209) 'the Walls of the World fence out the Void and the Eldest Dark' - a phrase in perfect agreement of course with the Ambarkanta – was retained (p. 154). This is a central difficulty in relation to the Ainulindalë, where it is made as plain as could be wished that Ëa came into being in the Void, it was globed amid the Void (§§11, 20, and see pp. 37-8); how then can the Walls of Arda 'fence out the Void and the Eldest Darkness'?
A possible explanation, of a sort, may be hinted at in the words cited above from AAm §17: Melkor gathered spirits out of the voids of Ëa. It may be that, although AAm is not far distant in time from the last version (D) of the Ainulindalë, my father's conception did not in fact now accord entirely with what he had written there; that (as I suggested, p. 39) he was now thinking of Arda as being 'set within an indefinite vastness in which all "Creation" is comprehended', rather than of a bounded Ëa itself set 'amid the Void'. Then, beyond the Walls of the Night, the bounds of Arda, stretch 'the voids of Ëa'. But this suggestion does not, of course, clear up all the problems, ambiguities, and apparent contradictions in the cosmology of the later period, which have been discussed earlier.

So we have what may be shifting cosmological ideas between the various texts of this phase - but it is difficult, if not impossible, to tell what exactly those shifts are, since we have only isolated clues in the texts. However, it seems to me quite plausible that the central problem is merely one of nomenclature: 'void' could be used in two senses. There is the Void in the sense of that beyond Ea, the place or thing within which Ea is globed; and then there is the Void of Ea, the vast empty space in which Arda and the innumerable stars are set.

All this is to say that I don't necessarily see a contradiction between the LQ's "Void and Eldest Darkness" and the cosmology of the Ainulindale and AAm. Now, whether we might want to err on the side of caution and eliminate a possible contradiction is an open question, and one on which I haven't quite decided where I stand.

In any case, I do agree with Findegil that we have a redundancy here, and I also agree that we can include the part of a sentence that I skipped. So with the caveat that we may still want to think about changing "Void and Eldest Darkness", I agree with Findegil's suggestion here.

VT-EX-03b: I like Findegil's proposal.

VT-EX-03.1: I like using "Mountains of Aman" here. I'm just the tiniest bit uncertain about replacing the other "Valinor" here with "Aman" ("they towered mightily between Valinor and the world"), since the mountains are after all part of Aman. But this is only a slight imprecision, and maybe it doesn't matter.

[ArcusCalion]

This first paragraph by Fin looks good. I think that the walls of the world, as shown by Aiwendil, are actually enclosing Arda. Therefore, the issue lies in the confusion of the Void with the Spaces of Ea, and I think now that such a distinction is less material her than needs to be. We could change it, or eliminate it though, in an effort to formalize a cosmological system.

For your Silindirin addition Fin, "Amidmost of" should be changed to "Within." I.E. the "of" should be removed too. The "within" should also be replaced by "amid," not "amidmost." I also agree about adding in Murmuran, but then we must have a sentence that calls the Gardens Lorien.

For the Nienna bit I actually decided to do it differently.

VT-LT-14<LT {for she}[But Niënna] labored {rather} at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears, and {black} clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and {their lightless webs}[they] settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were {despairs and hopeless mourning,} sorrows and {blind} grief, [pity and endurance in hope]. The hall {that she loved best}[where she dwelt] was {one yet wider and more dark than Vê}[west of West], and she {too} named it {with her own name, calling it} Fui. {Therein before her black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats’ wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt.}>

[Aiwendil]

VT-EX-30.1: I suppose I'm fine with leaving Arie(n)'s allegiance unstated. I think I prefer 'Arien' over 'Arie' for the etymological reason I mentioned.

VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: I'm not so sure about this. It's true that we don't have any definite statement that the gardens of Lorien and Vana do not border Ezellohar. But my impression of Valinor has always been one of a much larger region than that would suggest. Still, I suppose one could quibble about what exactly 'near to Ezellohar' means. I had pictured them being within sight of Ezellohar, but perhaps 'near' could mean miles away.

In any case, if we do add these descriptions back in, I think we need to eliminate the statements that the pools are disturbed only when it is time to 'water' the Trees, since AAm has the Maiar drawing from them to bring light to frith and field throughout Valinor.

VT-LT-06: I had been assuming that 'Lorien' replaced 'Murmuran' as the name of Irmo's dwelling. However, 'Murmuran' seems to refer to his house, while 'Lorien' refers to his lands/gardens as a whole. So I suppose 'Murmuran' could stay unless we reject it on linguistic grounds.

VT-LT-11: I think Findegil's suggestion is good.

VT-LT-13: I wonder whether we're justified in taking what was Nienna's hall and giving it to Mandos as well. Logically, what should come here would be a description of Vaire's hall, since the original is describing the neighbouring dwellings of Mandos and his wife. But the description is obviously unsuited to Vaire. Nor does it make much sense to retain it for Nienna.

I do seem to vaguely recall a statement somewhere in the post-LotR writings that Mandos contained separate halls for Elves and Men. Can either of you remind me where that is found? If that's indeed the case, then perhaps we do have justificiation for keeping the description of Fui's hall, even though Fui is no longer there.

Nonetheless, I do still wonder whether the rather 'primitive' description of the hall, with a ceiling of bat-wings (!) is still appropriate in the context of the later Legendarium. Actually, I am still for the same reason somewhat uneasy about most of the LT additions to this chapter.

Relatedly, it feels a little off to me that the vivid description of Mandos's halls here make no mention of the only two facts told of them in the Valaquenta: that they widen as the ages pass and that their walls are covered with Vaire's tapestries.

Omar and Nieliqui: I see no problems with these names phonologically, nor with Omar's other name, Amillo. I do wonder, though, whether Nieliqui can still be a "little maiden" if she is no longer the daughter of Orome and Vana.

VT-EX-39/VT-LT-14: I'm not sure I see a clear motivation for moving the passage from the Valaquenta to here. There are, after all, other bits of description of the Valar's dwellings in the Valaquenta, and I don't think it's a problem if the descriptions here are not comprehensive.

[ArcusCalion]

VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: We actually have a definite statement that the gardens of Lorien do border Ezellohar:

It was set in the South by the feet of the Mountains of Valinor upon the confines of the realm, but its gardens wandered marvelously about, winding nigh to the feet of Silpion whose shining lit them strangely.

"nigh to the feet of Silpion" means near Ezellohar. If Lorien is near Ezellohar, then I see no reason that we cannot make the logical leap that Vana's Bower is as well.

As far as the "never disturbed" pieces, maybe we can just change them to "seldom disturbed" and "seldom spilled."

VT-LT-06: I would do the Lorien bit like this:

VT-LT-06 <LT {Lóriën too} [Irmo] dwelt far away, and his hall was great and dimly lit and had wide gardens. The place of his dwelling he called Murmuran, which Aulë made of mists gathered beyond [Avathar] upon the Shadowy Seas. It was set in the South by the feet of the Mountains of Valinor upon the confines of the realm, but its gardens[, which he called Lóriën,] wandered marvelously .....

This way we can keep the sense of it. If we want we can change Lorien -> Irmo for the rest of the chapter when referring to the person, but I think we do not need to. In the Valaquenta it is already said that he is most often referred to by the name of his dwelling, so it is a simple in-universe fact.

VT-LT-13: The line you are looking for is in the chapter: "Of Men:"

Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves; and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows whether they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea.

All the same, I do agree with the idea that the "bat's wings" is a bit much... But if we are to keep all the descriptions (which I think we should) then we must keep this as well. Imagine he means carved bats, or something else more poetic. The details about them in the Valaquenta are indeed lacking here. We could repeat them again, or simply leave them out. Either way I think is fine. The fact that they widen and are covered with tapestries is already told to the reader in the Valaquenta, so the exclusion of these facts here does not render the previous description invalid, it simply adds the new elements to it.

VT-EX-39 / VT-LT-14: I agree with Aiwendil that we do not need to take this out of the Valaquenta. However, I would like an opinion on the edit I did to the Lost Tales paragraph by melding some wording from the Valaquenta.

VT-EX-30.1: I respectfully see no reason to leave her allegiance unknown when it is stated in the source document. If we are rejecting the story of the light, we are to use AAm and LQ as the sources for this. This would put Arien in the role of Vana's servant. However, this would not preclude the Light of Varda being given to her, as she still steers the Sun. On the subject of her name, I am inclined to go to Arien myself, since it makes more linguistic sense, while Arie / Azie seems more like Tolkien trying to make a new name in the Valarin.

[Aiwendil]

VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: Yeah, I suppose it is plausible for them to be within the gardens of Vana and Lorien and still near Ezellohar. It still feels a little - I don't know, too convenient, perhaps. But that's just a feeling, not an argument.

As far as the "never disturbed" pieces, maybe we can just change them to "seldom disturbed" and "seldom spilled."

That would probably work.

VT-LT-06: Since we've already told in the Valaquenta that his right name is Irmo but that he is called Lorien after his gardens, I don't think we need to repeat it here. So I'd opt rather for:

VT-LT-06 <LT Lóriën {too} dwelt far away, and his hall was great and dimly lit and had wide gardens. The place of his dwelling he called Murmuran, which Aulë made of mists gathered beyond [Avathar] upon the Shadowy Seas. It was set in the South by the feet of the Mountains of Valinor upon the confines of the realm, but its gardens wandered marvelously .....

VT-LT-13:

The line you are looking for is in the chapter: "Of Men:"

Ah, that's right; thanks. My concern now is that the statement in "Of Men" expresses this proposition with uncertainty ("some say . . .") - therefore I hesitate very much as to whether we can make a certain statement. So I'm still tempted to delete the statement about the fate of men here. We could perhaps instead add doubt to this passage as well, something like:

VT-LT-13b<LT{The}And another hall {that she loved best}there was, one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[the first]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui}. Therein before {her}[his] black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither[, some say,] came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Námo] reads their hearts.>

VT-EX-39 / VT-LT-14: I don't know, I think we'd be taking a great liberty by changing the clouds of despair to clouds of hope. Not least because a "cloud of despair" is a common metaphor and a "cloud of hope" isn't.

VT-EX-30.1: My preference would also be to keep her explicitly a Maia of Vana, but I don't feel particularly strongly about it.

[Findegil]

VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: "seldom" does solve the issue for Silindirin:

... and {Lórien}[Lóriën] used them much in his enchantments. VT-LT-06.5 {Amidmost of}[Within] those pleasances was set {within}[amid] a ring of shadowy cypress towering high that deep {vat}[well] {Silindrin}[Silindirin]. There it lay in a bed of pearls, and its surface unbroken was shot with silver flickerings, and the shadows of the trees lay on it, and the Mountains of Valinor could see their faces mirrored there. Lóriën gazing upon it saw many visions of mystery pass across its face, and that he suffered {never}[seldom] to be stirred from its sleep save when Silmo came noiselessly with a silver urn to draw a draught of its shimmering cools, and fared softly thence to water the roots of Silpion ere the tree of gold grew hot.>
VT-LT-07<LT Otherwise was the mind of Tulkas, ...

But not for Culullin. What about:

... Its innermost solitude is walled with roses, and this is the place best beloved of that fair lady of the Spring. VT-EX-11.7 Amidmost of this place of odorous air did Aulë set long ago that {cauldron}[well], gold {Kulullin}[Culullin], filled ever with the radiance of Laurelin like shining water, and thereof he contrived a fountain so that all the garden was full of the health and happiness of its pure light. Birds sang there all the year with the full throat of spring, and flowers grew in a riot of blossom and of glorious life. Yet VT-EX-13b was {none}[not much] ever of that splendour spilled from the {vat}[well] of gold save when Vána's maidens led by {Urwen}[Ariën] left that garden at the waxing of Silpion to water the roots of the tree of flame; but by the fountain it was always light with the amber light of day, as bees made busy about the roses, and there trod Vána lissomly while larks sang above her golden head.>

VT-LT-06: I agree to Aiwendils last suggestion.

VT-LT-13: Since Beren was meet by Lúthien in Mandos, it can not be the coming of Men to Mandos that is in question but the hall (in LT named Fui). I don't see that the hall described fits the later Nienna's dwelling place. So what about this:

VT-LT-13c<LT{The}And some said that there was another hall {that she loved best was}, one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[the first]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui}. Therein before {her}Namo’s black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Námo] reads their hearts.>

VT-EX-39 / VT-LT-14: Okay, we leave the hall of Nienna in the Valaquenta. But I would as ArcusCalion like to have a statement about Nienna here, so I agree to Aiwendil that clouds of pity and endurance in hope does not work. What about:

VT-LT-14<LT {for she}[But Niënna] labored {rather} at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears, and {black} clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and {their lightless webs}[they] settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were {despairs and hopeless} mourning, sorrows and {blind} grief, [but those who hearken to Nienna learn pity, and endurance in hope].

VT-EX-30.1: Okay, if both of you feel that Ariën should be a maiden of Vána then she will be in our version. And by the way, Ariën will be here name.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

VT-LT-11.7: How about:

... Its innermost solitude is walled with roses, and this is the place best beloved of that fair lady of the Spring. VT-EX-11.7 Amidmost of this place of odorous air did Aulë set long ago that {cauldron}[well], gold {Kulullin}[Cululin], filled ever with the radiance of Laurelin like shining water, and thereof he contrived a fountain so that all the garden was full of the health and happiness of its pure light. Birds sang there all the year with the full throat of spring, and flowers grew in a riot of blossom and of glorious life. Yet was {none}[little] ever of that splendour spilled from the {vat}[well] of gold save when Vána's maidens led by {Urwen}[Ariën] left that garden at the waxing of Silpion to water the roots of the tree of flame; but by the fountain it was always light with the amber light of day, as bees made busy about the roses, and there trod Vána lissomly while larks sang above her golden head.>

VT-LT-13: I think Findegil's last suggestion is good.

VT-LT-14: I can certainly agree to Nienna still distilling tears, but I'm having a hard time convincing myself about the clouds, and it seems very awkward to me to repeat a phrase directly from the Valaquenta here. I'm not sure I have a solution, though, without dropping Nienna from the descriptions here.