4 Of the coming of the Elves

[gandalf85]

Responding to both Findegil and Arcus:

1. OK, I was unaware of this spelling.

3. That's what I assumed, I just wanted to be clear.

4. There are further statements in "Laws and Customs" which I think make it far from collloquial, although it is further confused later in the essay:

"There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a ner can think or do, or others which only a nis is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar)."

This implies they are capable of doing exactly the same thing, implying no physical differences. For example, olympic track records between men and women are different due to physical differences; I've always imagined this wouldn't be the case between elvish men and women. But then Tolkien states later:

"Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals."

Here Tolkien state "less difference" and not "no difference", making it more ambiguous. I guess this is just a personal idea of mine: I've always liked the idea that there are no physical differences between elven men and women, and that patriarchal ideas were developed among the elves due to cultural exchanges with humans. However, I don't really have any proof of this. Since Tolkien himself seems to be contradictory w.r.t. whether nissi and neri are identical or just less different when compared to humans, I think it makes sense to just keep the text as is.

5. Yes, I agree with not changing the text simply because we do not agree with it. I just wanted to point it out as I thought it was interesting.

And what Manwe feared is not told. I don’t think he feared for himself or his safety, he feared for the demage that Melkor cold work on Ea.

This is an excellent point which I would agree with.

6. Since this is the only mention of Morwe and Nurwe I propose we keep it as is. Do we plan on making genealogical tables for Volume III? These should be very interesting.

This is more of a general question: are we only including texts which we consider to be "historically accurate"? Tolkien describes the story of Imin, Tata and Enel as "an Elvish fairytale or child's tale" and it seems to partly serve the purpose of teaching children how to count. This is an example where I think the lack of a frame actually hurts the story. I would have the teller of this story explicitly state that this is a child's tale to teach children how to count, and this explains why Imin, Tata and Enel disappear from the rest of the history. I'm not suggesting we add back in a frame, I think it was probably the right decision overall, but it makes some of the texts difficult to organize.

[Findegil]

Genealogical tables: ArcusCalion has included them in his draft for the structure of Volume III. But what we are doing is editing, not creating. We can include what Tolkien provided, corrected by our editing to what we find as canonical and may be with an addition here and there that is deemed canonical. But that does for sure not provide a full table as probably desired by many of us.

On your general question: Yes and no. We included the story of the awakening of the Elves with Imin, Tata and Enel. And yes a frame story would have been nice in this case for the exact reason you mentioned. But on the one hand we decised once against any frame story and on the other we would anyhow not have invented such frame story in a fan-fictional way. In the end the argument was that Imin, Tata and Enel could have send younger members of their house as ambassadors to Valinor (naturaly so as that journey could be called a great risk) and steped probably back when Ingwe, Finwe and Elwe came back ‘enlighted’ and argued successfully for the march.
Back to your original question I think that would become more important if we would have to decised on such things as ‘The Hort’ or other even more fantastic poems from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. But luckly Tolkien published these himself. But as example we included the Sleeper in the Tower of Pearl because we agreed that the corresponding poem could be considered as a valid ingredient. (So looking in to my drafts of the Second Age material, I see that I did not includ it so fare. Maybe I will correct this before ever I post them.)

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

I was actually thinking of some of the more fantastical elements of the Adventures of Tom Bombadil when bringing up that question. I agree with the conclusion you guys came to: It is entirely within reason that Imin, Tata and Enel sent younger ambassadors. We don't have to bend over backwards for that explanation. Anything that seems like a "valid ingredient" as you put it should be included.

[Aiwendil]

Just wanted to let you know that I am now looking at this chapter. My plan is to generate a version of my own first, before looking at Findegil's and ArcusCalion's, just to see how different it ends up being - I think this approach was someone useful for chapters 1 and 2. Then if there are any major divergences we can consider them, and I'll review the details of the version here and see if I have any suggestions.

Sorry again for being so absent of late - the past year or two have been a little bit turbulent in real life, but things look to be settling down a bit.

[ArcusCalion]

Thank you for letting us know! Let me just say right off the bat, that since working on this chapter with Fin, I have changed my mind about using the Quendi and the Eldar bits in this chapter, as I think they work much much better in that essay. Therefore, in my own version of this chapter, I have drastically reduced it by cutting out nearly all of those parts.

[Aiwendil]

Sorry again I've been taking so long with this. I was going to try to write an all-encompassing post, but perhaps it's better if I just post what I have for now.

As an exercise, I tried constructing a version of this chapter first without reference to the version posted here. However, to keep things simple I did not add anything from LT, MT, etc., and I only indicated the spot where the Cuivenyarna would go. So this is really just a basic text built from LQ and AAm. Note, I am not proposing this as the text for our chapter; it was only intended as a point of comparison.

CE-01 <AAm {§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and . . . but should wait for a time of awakening that yet should be.> CE-01.1<AAm* But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he did not sleep, but watched and laboured; and whatsoever good Yavanna worked in the lands he undid if he could, and the evil things that he had perverted walked far abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Úmaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath. But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>
<AAm{§31} Now Oromë dearly loved all the works of Yavanna, . . . he would often come also to Middle-earth, and there go a-hunting under the stars.> CE-01.2 <AAm* He had great love of horses and of hounds, but all beasts were in his thought, and he hunted only the monsters and fell creatures of Melkor. If he descried them afar or his great hounds got wind of them, then his white horse, Nahar, shone like silver as it ran through the shadows, and the sleeping earth trembled at the beat of his golden hooves. And at the mort Oromë would blow his great horn, until the mountains shook,> <AAm and things of evil fled away; but Melkor . . . giving battle only to those of little strength, tormenting the weak,> CE-01.3 <AAm* and trusting ever to his slaves to do his evil work.> <AAm Yet ever his dominion spread southward over Middle-earth, for even as Oromë passed the servants of Melkor would gather again; and the Earth was full of shadows and deceit.>
CE-02 <LQ {§18a} It came to pass that the Valar held council, . . .
{§19} And Varda said naught,. . . but in the North in the Elder Days Men called them the Burning Briar: {quoth Pengolod}.>
CE-03 <AAm {§37} In that hour, it is said, . . .
{§38} In the changes of the world. . . and the sound of water falling over stone.>
At this point the Cuivenyarna would be inserted
<AAm{§39} Long the Quendi dwelt . . . no other living things that spoke or sang.
CE-04 {§40 At this time also, it is said, Melian, fairest of the Maiar, desiring to look upon the stars, went up upon Taniquetil; and suddenly she desired to see Middle-earth, and she left Valinor and walked in the twilight.}
{1085}
{§41} And when the Elves . . .
{§42} Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited. And when Oromë looked upon them he was filled with wonder, as though they were things unforeseen and unimagined; and he loved the Quendi, and named them CE-04.1 {Eldar,} the people of the stars.
{§43} Yet many of the Quendi . . .
{§44} Thus it was that when Nahar . . .
{§45} But of those hapless . . .
{1086}
{§46} Oromë tarried a while . . . abode with the Elves.>
CE-05 <LQ{ And the {gods}[Valar] rejoiced, and yet were amazed at what he told; but} Manwë sat long upon Taniquetil deep in thought, . . .
{§21} But now the Valar made ready and came forth from Aman in the strength of war, resolving to assault the CE-05.1 fortress[es] of Melkor in the North and make an end. Never did Melkor forget that this war was made on behalf of the Elves and that they were the cause of his downfall.>
CE-06 <AAm {§48} Melkor met the onset of the Valar. . .
{1092-1100}
{§49} That siege was long and grievous, . . .
{1099}
{§50} It came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken and its halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden CE-06.1{a host of Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained}<AAm emendation his Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained faithful to him>, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, . . .
{Third section of the Annals of Aman
1100
The Chaining of Melkor}
{§51} Then the Valar returned to the Land of Aman, . . .
{§52} And the Valar doomed Melkor . . . discovered by the Valar.>
CE-07 <LQ {§23} Then again the {gods}[Valar] were gathered in council . . . speak with the tongue{s} of Melkor.
Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling . . .
{§24} The Eldar prepared now . . .
{§25} The smallest host . . .
{§26} Next came the Noldor, . . . northern lands of old. CE-07.1 <LQ emendation Dark is their hue and grey are their eyes.>
{§27} The greatest host came last, . . .
{§29} These are the chief peoples of the Eldalië, . . .
The {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar] were . . .
{§30} Others there were also . . .
{[}Other names in song and tale . . .
The Noldor are the Wise, . . .
The Teleri are the Foam-riders, . . . the {Axe}[Staff]-elves, the Green Elves and the Brown, . . . the Lingerers; they are the Friends of Ossë, <LQ emendation the Axe-elves,> the Elves of the Twilight, the Silvern, the Enchanters, the Wards of Melian, the Kindred of Lúthien, the people of Elwë. {Quoth Pengoloð.]}

I'll try to start digging into the details of Findegil's version tomorrow, but some initial thoughts after putting together my version:

- It seems that I relied more heavily on AAm and Findegil on LQ for the basic text. My understanding is that AAm is the later text, so I preferred it in cases where there was nothing else to decide between them, and used LQ only when it gave a fuller account or details that were otherwise missing. I made the following table of correspondences between the section numbers in the two texts, which might be of some use (the .5s indicate part way through a section and the bolded entries indicate the ones I preferred for my draft):

LQ : AAm
18 : 30-31
18a : 32-33
19 : 34-36
20 .0 : 37-46
20.5 - 21.0 : 47
21.5 : 48 - 50
22 : 51-52
23 : 53-57
24-27 : 58
29 : 59-62
30 : 63-66

I think it's worth looking at each LQ/AAm section in Findegil's draft and thinking about whether it or the other source is better.

- I agree that we should include the "Cuivienyarna", but I'm not completely sure how. I don't like the solution of just plopping it down in the middle here without transition or preamble. It seems clear to me that Tolkien did not intend this to <i>necessarily</i> be the "true" story of the Elves' awakening, especially since he noted that the names Imin, Tata, and Enel likely came from the number-words rather than the other way around. I think we need to somehow indicate that this is a story told among the Elves.

- In MT VI, an altered story of the Battle of the Powers is sketched out. I thought about this a bit, but it seems to me that this must be considered a projected change that we cannot implement. I haven't read through Findegil's version enough yet to see if anything was taken from this text, but I'll be continuing to think about this as I read through.

- I haven't looked at LT additions yet, though I see that there are some in Findegil's text. I think that in general I'm more hesitant to add in LT material in small bits than is Findegil, but I have no objection in principle, so this is something else I'll be paying attention to as I read through Findegil's version.

- I tend to think that the etymological discussion in "Quendi and Eldar" should not be included in the narrative of this chapter, though again, I haven't looked at specifics yet.

Mostly I just wanted to post this to start myself going. I hope to carefully read the proposed draft and discussion tomorrow or, at least, within the next few days.

[ArcusCalion]

Greetings Aiwendil! We look forward to reading your comments!