Chapter 1: Of the Beginning of Time

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Findegil

While for the chapter ‘Concerning the Dwarves the Ents and Eagles’ I think a matching of our editing should be helpful, I am in this chapter sure thst it would lead to more confusion and not less.

Yes, it seems that for this chapter we took quite different approaches.

BD-12: I was under the impression that the project once discussed about the relation between Yen, Valian Year and Year of the Sun. And from my memory of that discussion I think the result was that we should not address this complex at all. The reason if remembered rightly was the hasitation of JRR Tolkien about the greatly expanded time frame during the flight of the Noldor. Since you toke this § into your draft, what did you remember as out come of the discussion?

Hmm, I don't recall that discussion, but I will search for it.

You did not us any of the Myths Transformed text, so I think we agreed on using such when we discussed the first part of the chapter while working on the Valaquenta.

I did make one addition from Myths Transformed, but at the time I think I deemed most of the Myths Transformed texts not really useable. But I suspect I may have been wrong in thinking that.

BD-16: This last part of the Ainulindalë we left in that chapter. And I think it fits there better then here, even so nothing of what happened in the age before this revelation of Iluvatar toke place is told in our version.

I'm not sure why I left that section out. Yes, I agree that it should probably go here.

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

Yeah I agree with Findegil, we went through long discussions about many of these points and additions and arrived at conclusions, so to start all over again seems to me to be pointless.

Not to sound too flippant, but as I wasn't involved in these discussions, I personally don't consider anything settled or concluded yet!

I'm not necessarily proposing that we adopt my version as the framework. However, I think the differences are instructive - they show, for one thing, that radically different approaches are possible. And I think this is important. When one person presents a text for discussion, it's easy to, without meaning to, get locked into certain choices that were tacitly or unconsciously made in preparing that text, and to assume that those choices were inevitable.

In other words, I think it's worth taking a step back and considering, in broad strokes, the structure of the chapter, and which sources to base that structure on.

I don't mean, by any of this, to undermine or disparage the work you and Findegil have done lately - on the contrary, I think it's great. But, as Findegil can tell you, I like to proceed with great caution and deliberation!

So, I'm going to try to find some time in the next few days to examine Findegil's draft in detail, compare it to mine, and hopefully come up with some insights into the structure of the chapter. I do think that we should not take that structure for granted, and I don't think we should be unwilling to consider other alternatives.

As a general comment on content (as opposed to structure), it appears that Findegil has obviously adopted a lot more of Myths Transformed than I did, whereas I have adopted quite a bit from the Lost Tales that I don't see in Findegil's draft. I'm inclined to be cautious on both counts, but I do think that Findegil has identified several good passages to use from MT. Do the two of you have any thoughts on the Lost Tales sections I introduced? I was quite uncertain about them when I wrote this draft, and could probably be persuaded that they shouldn't be used, but I am rather fond of them.

[Findegil]

BD-03: Your addition from MT, Text VI is a great in it self. I always had in mind that we had such a passage that clearly identifies Melkor and Manwë with special thoughts of Eru. As we are told that Ainur were the of prings of Eru’s thoughts these is a perfect exemplification. But as you mentioned already we might better use it in the Valaquenta. What do you think of this placement and editing:

Last of all is set the name of Melkor, He who arises in Might. Vala-07.2 <MT, Text VI Melkor Vala-07.21{must be made}[was] far more powerfull in original nature Vala-07.22{ (cf. 'Finrod and Andreth')}. The greatest power under Eru Vala-07.23{(sc.} ; he was the greatest created power{)}.[Footnote to the text: Cf. Finrod's words in the Athrabeth{ (p. 322)}: 'there is no power conceivable greater than Melkor save Eru only'.] Vala-07.24{(}He was to make{ /}/,/ devise{ /}/,/ begin; Manwë (a little less great) was to improve, carry out, complete.{)} >But {that}the name Melkor he has forfeited; and the Noldor, who among the Elves suffered most from his malice, will not utter it, ...

BD-16: You did not leave it out, you included it here. But we agreed when editing Ainulidalë to use it at the end of that ‘chapter’. Thefore I think we have to execlude it here.

Posted by Aiwendil:

Not to sound too flippant, but as I wasn't involved in these discussions, I personally don't consider anything settled or concluded yet!

As you know well, Aiwendil, no topic in this project was ever fully closed. When ever new thoughts or ideas came up we discussed them, even in chapters that were considered finished. In this case the chapter is explicitly in the state of ‘work in progress’. So you are absolutely right, that nothing is settled or concluded yet.

I agree on your approach to look from a helicopter view on the structure to avoid probably unconscious pre-elections.

Posted by Aiwendil:

So, I'm going to try to find some time in the next few days to examine Findegil's draft in detail, compare it to mine, and hopefully come up with some insights into the structure of the chapter. I do think that we should not take that structure for granted, and I don't think we should be unwilling to consider other alternatives.

I fully agree to this. Take your time and come back with your input when you have made that comparision.

About the LT additions: I don’t think that your impression is fully correct:

BD-LT-01 / VT-EX-02: The placement and editing seems a bit different, but the contenet is the same.

BD-LT-02 and your next add about Melkor hearing the noise of their labor and BD-LT-03 are all included in what I called VT-EX-03.

VT-EX-04: This addition from LT you did not use.

Your addition from LT in §25 of AAm and BD-LT-04, BD-LT-05, BD-LT-06, BD-LT-07, BD-LT-08, BD-LT-09 and BD-LT-11, BD-LT-12 and BD-LT-13 are all included in the longe addition that I took that starts with VT-EX-05 and end at VT-EX-15.

BD-LT-10: This I missed probably. But I agree that it should be included. And like your editing with the fitting surrounding. But for the time being I will restrain from putting into my version as long as the question of the structure is not clear.

So you see that at least concerning the LT additions we are not that fare sundered.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

BD-03: I agree, this is better in the Valaquenta. I'm a little concerned about the stylistic dissonance between the Valaquenta and the more informal MT text, but perhaps we should discuss that in the Valaquenta thread.

BD-16: Right. Sorry, I did not look carefully enough at my own text, nor recall our previous discussions, before posting it!

About the LT additions: I don’t think that your impression is fully correct

Yes, I hadn't looked carefully enough through your draft either, and missed much of the Lost Tales material you used. To be honest, I still have some reservations about the use of this Lost Tales material - namely, I wonder if the rather more "pagan" descriptions of the Valar and their dwellings might be considered implicitly rejected by Tolkien. But I think that in the end, I lean toward using them.

All right, I will find some time to study the texts more carefully, and then give you my thoughts.

[Aiwendil]

I'm working on a long post comparing our versions, discussing the general approach, and then getting into some particulars. This should be done soon, but in the meantime I thought I'd just mention a few typos and (I believe) some missing editorial marks that I noticed in Findegil's text.

Here begins the Silmarillion or history of the Silmarills

Typo: “Silmarills” for “Silmarils”.

BoT-11 <Words, Phrases and Passages- Eldarin roots and stems, PE17 <The fanar <taken from above [or "raiment"]> of the Great Valar were said, by the Elves who had dwelt in Valinor, usually to have had a stature greater than that of tallest Elves, and when performing some great deed, or issuing great commands, to have assumed an awe-inspiring heigth.>

Typo: “heigth” for “height”.

BoT-23< LQ §12 In the darkness and the confusion of the seas the Valar could not at that time overcome Melkor; for his strength had increased with his malice, and he had now gathered to his service many other spirits, and many evil things also of his own making. BoT-24<AAm In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwë as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas. But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid. And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterward they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar. Thus {he}Melkor escaped from the wrath of the Valar, and far in the North he BoT-25 <editorial addition had> built himself a fortress, and delved great caverns underground, and deemed that he was secure from assault for ever.

There appears to be an editorial mark missing here, where the AAm excerpt ends and we return to LQ. It should be:

BoT-23< LQ §12 In the darkness and the confusion of the seas the Valar could not at that time overcome Melkor; for his strength had increased with his malice, and he had now gathered to his service many other spirits, and many evil things also of his own making. BoT-24<AAm In the confusion and the darkness Melkor escaped, though fear fell upon him; for above the roaring of the seas he heard the voice of Manwë as a mighty wind, and the earth trembled beneath the feet of Tulkas. But he came to Utumno ere Tulkas could overtake him; and there he lay hid. And the Valar could not at that time overcome him, for the greater part of their strength was needed to restrain the tumults of the Earth, and to save from ruin all that could be saved of their labour; and afterward they feared to rend the Earth again, until they knew where the Children of Ilúvatar were dwelling, who were yet to come in a time that was hidden from the Valar.> Thus {he}[Melkor[/u] escaped from the wrath of the Valar, and far in the North he BoT-25 <editorial addition had> built himself a fortress, and delved great caverns underground, and deemed that he was secure from assault for ever.

Of Valinor and the Two Trees:

}{§12 In the darkness and the confusion of the seas the Valar could not at that time overcome Melkor; for his strength had increased with his malice, and he had now gathered to his service many other spirits, and many evil things also of his own making.
}Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the Valar upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and the {Gods}[Valar] had no abiding place upon the face of the earth.{ Therefore they removed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, which was westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the world; for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night. But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West.}

I think there is again a missing editorial mark here, showing that we switch to AAm:

}{§12 In the darkness and the confusion of the seas the Valar could not at that time overcome Melkor; for his strength had increased with his malice, and he had now gathered to his service many other spirits, and many evil things also of his own making.
}<AAm Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the Valar upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and the {Gods}[Valar] had no abiding place upon the face of the earth.{ Therefore they removed from Middle-earth and went to the Land of Aman, which was westernmost of all lands upon the borders of the world; for its west shores looked upon the Outer Sea that encircled the kingdom of Arda, and beyond were the Walls of the Night. But the east-shores of Aman are the uttermost end of the Great Sea of the West.}>

A more substantive post will follow, hopefully tomorrow!

[ArcusCalion]

I apologize, re-reading my comment it sounds very brusque and rude. Please forgive my curtness Aiwendil! I was just somewhat confused that it felt like you were rejecting our version, which was obviously not the case at all. So sorry about that

[Aiwendil]

No need to apologize; I didn't think you were being rude at all!

[Aiwendil]

Apologies in advance for the length of this.

I am going to first present my synopses of both my text and Findegil's. I indicate here only the major sections, not noting smaller additions from other sources. The idea is just to have the basic structure of each text visible in a digestible form for comparison.

Findegil's text:

MT2:
Valar begin labour on Arda; other Ainur go elsewhere
Valar labour without Melkor
Melkor seeks for Arda
Melkor finds Arda and desires to undo it

Ainulindale:
Melkor claims Arda; Manwe denies it
Strife between Melkor and Valar
First war between Valar and Melkor
Tulkas comes to aid of Valar

MT2:
Melkor driven out into Void outside Arda

Ainulindale:
Valar take shape and hue
Valar bring order to seas, lands, mountains; Yavanna plants seeds

LQ:
Earth is dark

Ainulindale:
Valar make Lamps
Plants and beasts grow
Home of Valar on Isle of Almaren

AAm:
Valar hold feast and Melkor returns
Melkor delves Utumno

Ainulindale:
Corruption of plants and animals

MT2
Valar become aware of corruption and seek for Melkor

Ainulindale:
Melkor reveals himself and takes physical form

AAm:
Melkor comes suddenly forth to war and strikes the first blow
Melkor destroys Lamps
Shape and symmetry of Arda marred

LQ:
Valar cannot overcome Melkor because his strength has increased and he has servants

AAm:
Melkor escapes to Utumno ere Tulkas can overtake him
Valar cannot overcome Melkor because they must restrain tumults of the earth

LQ:
Melkor escapes from the wrath of the Valar and had already built Utumno
Melkor builds Angband

---

AAm:
Dwelling on Almaren utterly destroyed

LQ:
Valar depart into west and build Valinor

LT:
Valar find a wide land beyond Avathar
Valar raise mountains

LQ:
Valar gather light and fair things

LT:
Valar gather materials in Valinor
Valar gather light in great cauldrons
Building of Valinor and descriptions of dwellings

AAm:
After Valinor was built, Valar had built Valimar
Yavanna sings at Green Mound

LQ:
Two Trees come forth

LT:
Telperion grows
Laurelin grows

AAm:
Two Trees put forth light

LT:
Valar name the trees Laurelin and Silpion

LQ:
Names of the Trees
Waxing and waning of the Trees; reckoning of hours

LT:
Yavanna tells the Valar about waxing and waning of Trees
Yavanna instructs them to gather the light from the Trees in cauldrons and water them thence
Valar appoint Arie and Silmo to water Trees

LQ:
Varda lets hoard the light from the Trees in great wells

AAm:
Maiar draw light from wells and bring it to frith and field

MT 2
Varda had retained some of the Primeval Light
Varda uses this Light to water Trees (editorial addition?)

AAm:
Valinor becomes more beautiful than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda
Valar are joyful and leave Middle-earth in twilight

Ainulindale:
Melkor walks abroad in Middle-earth
Valar dwell in bliss in Valinor and seldom come to Middle-earth

MT
Valar go to Valinor more often and stay longer
Valar are driven out of Middle-earth by Melkor and his servants

Ainulindale:
Locations of Aule’s, Manwe’s, Ulmo’s dwellings; account of their activities as well as Varda’s, Yavanna’s, and Orome’s

Aiwendil's text:

AAm:
After ages of labour, Valar enter Arda
Valar labour in Arda
Melkor claims kingship and causes strife

Ainulindale:
Tulkas comes to aid of Valar
Melkor flees and broods in the outer darkness

LQ:
Earth is dark
Valar make lamps

Ainulindale:
Plants and beasts grow
Home of Valar on Isle of Almaren

AAm:
Valar hold feast and Melkor returns
Melkor delves Utumno

Ainulindale:
Corruption of plants and animals

AAm:
Valar perceive corruption and seek for Melkor’s hiding place
Melkor comes suddenly forth to war and strikes the first blow
Melkor destroys Lamps
Shape and symmetry of Arda marred
Melkor escapes to Utumno ere Tulkas can overtake him
Valar cannot overcome Melkor because they must restrain tumults of the earth
(---)
Dwelling on Almaren utterly destroyed
Valar go west to Aman

LT:
Valar find a wide land beyond Avathar
Valar raise mountains
Valar gather materials in Valinor

AAm:
Aule builds mansions of the Valar
Valar gather great store of light and fair things
Valinor becomes more beautiful than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda
Valar are joyful and leave Middle-earth in twilight
After Valinor was built, Valar build Valimar
Yavanna sings at Green Mound

LQ:
Trees grow
Names of the Trees

AAm:
Varda gathers light from Trees and stores it in great vats
Maiar draw light from wells and bring it to frith and field

LQ:
Waxing and waning of the Trees; reckoning of hours

AAm:
Reckoning of time/years

Ainulindale:
Melkor walks abroad in Middle-earth
Valar dwell in bliss in Valinor and seldom come to Middle-earth

Ainulindale: with LT additions:
Description of Valar’s dwellings and activities

Ainulindale:
Gift of Eru to Men