6 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië

[ArcusCalion]

Before I reply to each change, as a general rule: Ñoldor > Noldor. This is the form we are using, as this is meant to be written in the Third Age by Bilbo, who would have used the Exilic Ñ > N change (as well as K > C) and thus should only be used when discussing the etymology or linguistics of it.

[ArcusCalion]

Here are my comments. This was another great draft, Fin, and I do not have too many comments. Anything I do not mention I agree to.

EPE-EX-10: Why change twice to once? The island has been used to ferry the Vanyar and Noldor to Valinor, and then is brought back to ferry the Teleri. it is thus exposed to the light of the trees twice.

EPE-EX-12.1: In the phrase "bay of Arvalin" you changed it to "Avathar." In the old conception of the beginning of the Lost Tales, Arvalin was a catch-all name for what would become both Avathar and Araman, and thus the bay was right in the middle. As Avathar is only to the south of the bay, I think this change shouldtus be to "Elvenhome" or "Elende," as Avathar is not really accurate.

EPE-EX-12.2: In the next paragraph, There are two instances of the name "Silpion" that need to be changed to "Telperion." In addition, in this section:

Here was the place that those fair Elves bethought them to dwell{, and the Gods they named that hill Kor by reason of its roundness and its smoothness}. Thither did Aulë bring all the dust of {magic}[marvelous] metals ...

The word magic I have changed to marvelous, as it cannot stand as is.

EPE-EX-12.3: Where the Lost Tales insertion returns to the QS text, because the city has just been described, a "Thus" is need to smooth the transition. I know we dont change for reasons of style, but we make this exception in order to transition between insert and base text.

EPE-EX-16: this may be considered too purely stylistic, but I was wondering if we could change "beyond their anchorage {you reach}[are reached] the Magic Isles,". In the original version, someone is telling this story to Eriol, thus the you.

EPE-EX-16.1: In the concluding bit:

But the farthest shore of those Shadowy Seas is {Arvalin or Erumani}[Avathar] to the far south, and Araman to the north, but {more northerly}[in the center] do they lap the very coasts of Eldamar, and here are they broader to one faring west.

The geography is wrong. The shadowy seas extend on both sides of the bay, both north and south. We either need to remove this bit, or ad in an editorial addition like what I have italicized above. As another note, in all subsequent occurrences of "Arvalin" I would change it to "Avathar and Araman," not just Avathar, for reasons already given.

EPE-EX-16.2: Further on we have:

But the {Teleri}[Vanyar] and Inwir gathered {[?}harvest{]} of poesy and song

Inwir should be Ingwi, as per the Shibboleth of Feanor, or Ingar as per the Laws and Customs.

EPE-EX-21: I could not find your marker for 21, so I used the number for my comment. In this bit in the Names section:

The Sindar knew little of the Valar and had no names for any of them, save Oromë (whom all the Eldar had seen and known); and Manwë and Varda of whose eminence they had been instructed by Oromë; and the Great Enemy whom the Noldor called Melkor. For Oromë a name had been made in Primitive Eldarin (recalling the sound of his great horn) of which Oromë was the Quenya form, though in Sindarin it had become Araw, and by the Sindar he was later more often called (Aran) Tauron 'the (king) forester'. Manwë and Varda they knew only by the names 'Elder King' and 'Star-queen': Aran Einior and Elbereth. Melkor they called Morgoth 'the Black Enemy', refusing to use the Sindarin form of Melkor: Belegur 'he that arises in might', save (but rarely) in a deliberately altered form Belegurth 'Great Death'. These names Tauron, Aran Einior, Elbereth, and Morgoth the Noldor adopted and used when speaking Sindarin.

This is wrong, as there are Sindarin names for almost all the Valar, except Nienna and Vana. (Ulmo = Ulu, Guiar, Gulma; Aule = Óli, Ôl; Yavanna = Ivon, Ivann; Mandos = Bannos; Lorien = Lúrin, Glurim; Este = Idh; Tulkas = Tulcus; Vaire = Gwîr; Nessa = Neth) In addition, we have stated that Orome told the Elves his given Valarin name of Aromez, which they simply changed to Orome /Araw. Should these other names be included? or should this passage be edited some other way at least to reflect their existence and the origin of the name of Orome?

EPE-EX-21.1: For {Þerinde}[Serindë] why? Would it not be better to include the main text of the Shibboleth about the tension between Feanor and Fingolfin bc of his shibboleth?

EPE-EX-21.2: Right before marker 22, it says "as in Curufim" with a direction that this will be addressed later. However, the word Curufim is not mentioned again, although the fim > fin issue is. should this remain as is?

EPE-EX-23: I see that this cannot be used here, but it should be used in the Ruin of Beleriand chapter.

EPE-EX-23.1: in the footnote:

Káno meant in Quenya 'commander', usually as the title of a lesser chief, especially one acting as the deputy of one higher in rank. [footnote to the text: It was a derivative of Common Eldarin KAN 'cry, call aloud', which developed divergent meanings (like 'call' in English or the Germanic stem hait-) depending on .....

the italicized part must go as it references English and German in the text. same for the later

and often applied to lamentation (though not as English 'cry' to weeping tears): ....

EPE-EX-23.2: The footnote: "See note XX on pageYY" I am not sure what it means.

EPE-EX-29: I would say he could be included, but the editorial addition should be different, as this does not work. Maybe just (such as Elulindo) instead of "as"

EPE-EX-31.1: In this sentence:

Airë was used by the Eldar as a title of address to the Valar and the greater Máyar.

Is Mayar simply a variant spelling of Maiar? is it his new standard? or is it something we should change?

EPE-EX-32.1: All the additions about Nerdanel's father here have been added into the DoV chapter, but they fit much better here. Thus we must be sure to remove them from the DoV draft.

EPE-EX-32.5: Another footnote is added right after Urundil 'copper-lover':

RUN 'red, glowing', most often applied to things like embers, hence adjective runya, Sindarin ruin ' "fiery" red'. The Eldar had words for some metals, because under Oromë’s instruction they had devised weapons against Morgoth's servants especially on the March, but the only ones that appear in all Eldarin languages were iron, copper, gold and silver (ANGA, URUN> MALAT> KYELEP).

EPE-EX-34.1: Why delete the last bit from the Maedros paragraph about the russ- / -ros part of his name?

That is everything I saw! It is so good to have this chapter added to my drafts, I have been excited to see how it would turn out!

[Findegil]

[{Ñoldor}[Noldor]: Agreed. We discussed that before, I just didn’t found the time to make that change effective in my drafts, because every instant is to be checked with the original source. I will do sooner or later.

EPE-EX-10: It has at this time be use to ferry the Vanyar and Noldor together and is know when coming back from Beleriand routed in the Bay of Eldamar, where its newly exposition to the light of the Trees differently from the first one, since it is farther away from the shore and that is described a few lines later. In the LT version Vanyar (their named Teleri) and Noldor were transported seperatly, therefore ‘two-times’ was right in that tale, but is wrong in our version.

EPE-EX-12.1: Agreed, I did only made the regular change with out any farther thought. But I would take ‘Eldamar’ as a replacement, since that seems to be the more regulary used name for the Bay.

EPE-EX-12.2: I agree on {magic}[marvellous]. But Silpion is still a valid name of the Tree. I have observed your trend to rename it in any instant, but I dout that this is necessary.

EPE-EX-12.3: Agreed.

EPE-EX-16: Your reasoning is good and I don’t think it is stylistic. It is rather due to the story line change we did introduce, so I will call it EPE-SL-02.

EPE-EX-16.1: You are right, in a way, but even in the old geography Arvalin was in the north and in the south touching the Shadowy Sea. So as it stood the text gave the infromtion only of the southern himispher and so does it as I changed it. What is the issue with that?
I agree to change {Arvalin}[Avathar and Araman] if it is fitting.

EPE-EX-16.2: Shiboleth is the later source so ‘Ingwi’ it should be.

EPE-EX-21 Is the beginning of the section taken from the Shibboleth, right before that title. So we should refer to your comment about the Sindarin names of the Valar as
EPE-EX-21.05: To have Sindarin names applied to the Valar does not render this passage untrue since they could have been invented by the Noldor after they adopted Sindarin as their dayly speech. I agree that we have to eliminate ‘(recalling the sound of his great horn)’ since that is contradicted by the story we have given at his arrival by the Elves. For the rest I am in doubt here. Could you provide the source for these names, please?

EPE-EX-21.1: We might include the full text, but probably not here. As yet it was forseen as a part of volume 3 (or not?). But even if we think it should be taken earlier, this place is too early, since all the names given here are given in a preview.

EPE-EX-21.2: I think it can stand because the footnote dose sguide the reader to the right place to look for the explaination, even so ‘Curufim’ is not mentioned.

EPE-EX-23: Agreed.

EPE-EX-23.1: I disagree to this. We discussed this before when editing the ‘Ælfwine and Dírhavel’ text for the introduction of the ‘Narn’. We produce a text in English for English readers. It is not supposed to have any Middel-earth existence as such, since we aknowledge that it is a compilation of us from different sources. So even if we remove Ælfwine and his references to Anglosaxon, we may nonetheless keep comparisions to English or German of today.

EPE-EX-23.2: That is a reference to another footnote. But as it stands it can only be filled with sensefull information when the text is in final editing. Alternatively we could remove it.

EPE-EX-29: Agreed.

EPE-EX-31.1: Good question. This is asking for in indept research if ‘Maiar’ was used in later texts and if ‘Máyar’ was used in any other place. Anybody with some time at hand, for such an endeavour?

EPE-EX-32.1: Agreed.

EPE-EX-32.5: Okay, I mist that. We will reinstall it.

EPE-EX-34.1: Okay, that was an artefact of a time when we called him ‘Maedron’. Since we came in the end back to ‘Maedros’, we can let this stand.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Everything I do not respond to I agree with.

EPE-EX-021.05: If the Noldor simply made Sindarin versions of their names then that would contradict what is said a sentence before the excerpt I gave:

Thus the names of the Valar which they had devised in Valinor were not as a rule changed, whether they fitted Sindarin style or not.

This would mean that these Sindarin names are in origin from the Sindar themselves. On another note, whether the other names are considered no longer valid or not, how can the Sindar be said to know nothing of Ulmo, when he is said to have visited Nevrast often, and to have drawn the island with the elves (the people of Thingol chose to stay, so they saw him)? As for the sources for these names:
Ulmo = I could not find a source for these names, but he is given others in the Etymologies.
Aule = I actually cannot find a source for his, but I found other names in the Etymologies.
Yavanna = This name comes from the Etymologies, but is attested in the latest of writings, in "Of Lembas" in the compound: Ivonwin: Maidens of Yavanna, as well as the Sindarin name for the month of Yavannie: Ivanneth.
Mandos = This name comes from the Etymologies as the Sindarin equivalent.
Lorien = This name comes from an early essay on the Gnomish language found in Parma Eldalamberon.
Este = This name comes from Quendi and the Eldar in the Note on the Language of the Valar.
Tulkas = This name is from the Gnomish Lexicon, so it is quite old.
Vaire = This name comes from the Etymologies
Nessa = This name comes from the Etymologies
Of course, many of these names are not sourced from up-to-date texts, but the fact that the name of Yavanna occurs in a very very late writing and in the Lord of the Rings itself, along with the logical error that they would have no name for Ulmo, and the fact that Este is given a name in the late writing of Quendi and the Eldar all point to the fact that Tolkien had forgotten some facts about what he had published or what he had in mind changed back to its original state.
Thus, since this passage clearly cannot be said to be true, I suggest we revise it. Here is my suggestion:

The Sindar knew little of the Valar EPE-EX-21.05 {and}[but] had {no} names for {any}[all] of them, editorial addition{save} [the most common of which were] Oromë (whom all the Eldar had seen and known); and Manwë and Varda of whose eminence they had been instructed by Oromë; and the Great Enemy whom the Noldor called Melkor. For Oromë a name had been made in Primitive Eldarin {(recalling the sound of his great horn)} of which Oromë was .....

I know this editorial addition is risky, and if you have a better suggestion I would love to hear it, as this seems like a clumsy solution.

EPE-EX-23.2: why was this reference needed? was it given in the base text? Either way I would remove it, as we have no other instances of this type of thing.

EPE-EX-3.1: All I could find was its use in a footnote (also in Shibboleth) but nowhere else in the HoME texts. I do not own Vinyar Tengwar or Parma Eldalamberon, so I cannot search those documents to see if they contain it. However, I would stick to Maiar if no actual etymology can be found for the later form,as Maiar has a developed etymology, and a clear meaning, whereas the later form is ambiguous.

[Findegil]

EPE-EX-21.05: I agree that we have to change it. What about:

... The Sindar knew little of the Valar EPE-EX-21.05{and}[but] had {no }names for {any}[all] of them, {save}[as] Oromë (whom all the Eldar had seen and known); and Manwë and Varda of whose eminence they had been instructed by Oromë; and the Great Enemy whom the Ñoldor called Melkor. For Oromë a name had been made in Primitive Eldarin {(recalling the sound of his great horn) }of which Oromë was the Quenya form, ...

EPE-EX-23.2: Sure the footnote is from the used source text and from JRR Tolkien himself. If footnotes are absolutley necessary can be questioned nearly in every case. The reference is to the long footnote just above about 'KAN'. So by all probabitlity it would only be a double reference to the same footnote.

EPE-EX-31.1: For the time being we should change it to 'Maiar'. If some other informations comes up, we are any time free to revise back to Máyar.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

EPE-EX-21.05: I would use "especially" instead of "as". This flows better, and holds the meaning of the original more I think.

EPE-EX-23.2: I would recommend deleting it.

EPE-EX-31.1: sounds good.

[Findegil]

EPE-EX-21.05: Agreed.

EPE-EX-23.2: Again, in the finished text it would amount to not more then two times the same reference number attached to two places in the text. Therefore I do not seen any good reason to skip it. At the time being I would change it to

[footnote to the text: See note about KAN above]

Respectfully
Findegil