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09-27-2017, 08:04 AM
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#1 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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1) We have not done a Draft for chapter six. Findegil has a Draft of his own but he is waiting to discuss some of the chapters I've done before he posts it. This chapter is discussed here http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php.
2) This was done at the express instruction of Tolkien himself in HoMe volume 10. He edited the numbering of all his subsequent chapters to reflect the change, so we have taken them up as separate chapters as well. I am not sure why they all have the Darkening of Valinor bit in the beginning of their title, but that was decided before I arrived. 3) It is placed there because it takes place then chronologically. A case could be made for its inclusion in volume 3 instead. It will definitely be included. 4) Óssanwë Kenta is an essay given in one of the issues of the Vinyar Tengwar which details the method of mind communication. |
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09-27-2017, 11:28 AM
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#2 | |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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Okay, I see that my categories are not good enough. Since anyway an update is needed I will re-do it here again
I have shortened the list to full chapters in volume 1. The sub-chapters are easily found in the chapter structure earlier in this thread and the status of the sub-chapters of one full chapter is normally the same. The following status classes are used: Untouched: Chapter is foreseen in the structure, but nothing more is done about it. First Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, not yet in a state ready for group discussion. Priv. Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, ready for group discussion, but not yet posted in the Forum. Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, and posted in the Forum. But up to now no discussion had started. Work in progress: Discussed in the Forum but not yet deemed finished by the members OR once deemed finished but known to be in need of substantial revision. Semi-finished: finished but with small points raised by new sources or new input that must be discussed. Finished: Done and all members are still happy with the result. Quote:
Volume 2 is in my vision of it build by two parts: ‘The Elder Day’ and ‘The Third Age’. For the first of these I did a full draft of my own. My idea was to follow the same principle as in volume 1: to report the history of that time in nearly chronological order. Therefore my Second Age stuff is more not separated between Nomenor and Middle-earth. To get a readable work some parts of the sources must then be moved freely. That means they are not found under the appropriate chapter heading, but somewhere else. I see that you do some similar thing with ‘Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age’. And I have used earlier parts of the ‘Akalabeth’ in a similar way. I envisioned the second part in a similar fain, so I foresaw more problems in the Third Age material to get a readable closed sequence. But since I never did any work in that part, don’t no if it is possible or not. By that process such works as ‘The Line of Elros and the Kings of Númenor’ would be shifted to volume 3. Beside that I would not include any text that is given in the Appendices of LotR. Sources published by JRR Tolkien himself are taboo for the project. They can and must be used as a guideline, but they are not edited in TftE. (If you envision a 5 volume TftE they might be included in full.) We might at some point use a sentence of these sources here and there, if really no other source can be found, but even than for the sack of no redundant text I would search first the appropriate HoMe volumes. That said I do not see what ‘The tale of the Years’ would include. We do not have enough of that text to create a First Age text and we do not double the Second and Third Age from the Appendices of LotR. Would ‘Cirion and Eorl’ include all the history of the Northmen as allies of Gondor? I think yes, but then the chapter title might be asking for a change. I think ‘The Istarí’ does refer to the long essay at the start of that chapter in Unfished Tales. Since that is written in retrospective, I moved it to volume 3. I removed ‘Glorfindel’, since it is included in my draft of the Second Age stuff. I removed ‘The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen’ since that is found in the Appendix to LotR. But I included ‘The New Shadow’. If it is fitting and can be edited to a satisfactory form is in question, but at least it is worth a try. In volume 3 I am not able to comment much at the time being. Beside what I explained above I only shifted the ‘Maps and Diagrams’ into the ‘Ambarkanta’. If we are really able to update maps and diagrams, then the diagrams belong here and the full scale maps should be included in the other two volumes. One side note about the work on first and private drafts: Once in the history of the project Maedhros and I had done draft for RoD in parallel. The comparison between these were a nightmare and in the end we had to change the working procedure for that chapter to get it done in a good way, and with that the hard all the work of making these drafts and comparing them was rendered nearly useless. The reason why I relatively soon made my post with the first version of this ‘state of the project list’ was exactly to avoid having again parallel drafts. And now I see that nonetheless you did work on the second age material that was already in ‘Draft’ state, and that even without re-starting the general discussion that Arvegil145 and I had of how to. I fear that in the end either your time for doing this drafts was wasted of mine. I hope it is yours, since ‘ever’ seems to be a short span in your reconing.  About gandalf85’s points: 1) ‘Of Eldamar and Princes of teh Eldalie’:As you see above that is still on my computer waiting to be posted here. The work needed to do that, is to shorten it for the public forum to as good as possible in line with copy right law and to comment on the changes I introduce. ‘Of the Darkening of Valinor: Of Finwë and Miríel’: There is nothing more finished than the text of 2004. And since the project has developed since that time the state of the chapter is ‘Semi-finished’. 2) ‘Of the Darkening of Valinor‘ is included in all the chapter headings because that was how we understood what Tolkien intended. But since all these chapters are in the ‘Semi-finished’ state this point can also be discussed. 3) gandalf85, why do you think the ‘Athrabeth’ shouldn’t been placed at its chronological place? Now after we have worked out a draft for ‘Of the Edain’ my feeling is that it is even more fitting exactly there. 4) If I remember rightly it is a part of either ‘Dangweth Pengolodh’ or ‘Essekenta Eldarinwa’ that was not included in the HoMe volume due to space restriction. (This should then as well be the placing in our volume 3.) It is correct that it was then published in Vinyar Tengwar. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 09-27-2017 at 03:21 PM. |
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09-27-2017, 05:08 PM
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#3 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Normally I would not agree that the chronological breakup of the texts is what is needed, but we have been doing this throughout Volume 1, so it is in line with the project and thus makes sense. Do not worry, I have not wasted any time on editing the second age and third age stuff, as I knew that you had a clear idea and draft of the structure. Have no fear, I will defer to your draft in this matter. The only point I would argue of your draft: Glorfindel and the Istari came during the third age, as it is told in the published Tale of Years. Thus, we should not include this in the "Black Years" section.
On that note, is the name "The Black Years" meant to be the equivalent to the "Quenta Silmarillion," because if so, I would argue we should look for a Tolkien Based document title, or a mirror name like "The History of the Rings: Quenta Million;" just a thought. The Tale of Years was indeed a risky addition of mine, but I figured we could include an entirely synthesized group of dates for major events that we post as an appendix to give some historical context to the stories. That may very well be antithetical to the project, and I do not disagree with its removal from the list. The Cirion and Eorl point may well be as you say, and we can discuss it at the time of the drafting. The Istari movement is fine as well. I only refrained from including The New Shadow because you had expressed reluctance about its inclusion when asked by Arvegil. I am glad you think now that we should include it. Consider it a late appendix by Sanwise to the Red Book that has been lost due to damage or some such. I only put the diagrams at the end bc they include the Tree of Tongues in the Lhammas, but we can put that at the end of the Lhammas. If you think that the Ossanwe should be appended to Essekenta Eldarinwa, then I will not contest. |
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09-27-2017, 09:38 PM
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#4 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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Glorfindel is not named as coming during the Third Age in 'The Tale of the Years' and in the essay it self the possibility that an Elve would be send in the Third Age is clearly denied. So at least the 'Glorfindel' part is in the 'Blackyears section.
And the Istari we have to discuss. The essay from HoMe 12 might be a proposed change that we can't use due to 'The Tale of the Years'. 'The Black Years' is Tolkien base so he probabaly never used it as a documenttitle, but as a Name of time period describt. My reservations about 'The NEw Shadow' and the argument given in the discussion with Arvegil145 are still valid, but as with so many other problematic ingredents, I think we should try and see from the result if it feasable. I did forget the Leangue-trees from the Lhammas, but would as you say include them connected to the Lhammas. Respectfully Findegil |
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