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09-26-2017, 07:39 PM
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#1 |
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Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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A few questions:
1) I cannot find "6 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie Draft" anywhere and the only topic related to "7 Of the Darkening of Valinor: Of Finwë and Míriel Semi-finished" is http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=4396 last updated in 2004. Is the latest text for this only on the private forum? 2) Why was the Darkening of Valinor split up into multiple main chapters (7-10) while other chapters have sub-chapters (i.e. 12: Of the Flight of the Noldor is made up of sub-chapters "Of the Speech of Fëanor upon Túna" and "Of the first Kin-slaying and the Doom of the Noldor")? It seems inconsistent. 3) Is "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth" going to be placed between chapters 21 and 22 of the Quenta itself? I think it makes sense to embed the Great Tales into the Quenta itself, but the Athrabeth should be in a separate section isolated from the Quenta. On a tangent: The Athrabeth is one of my favorite writings by Tolkien, and I absolutely think it should be included. 4) "Óssanwë Kenta": I am not familiar with this. Where is it from? I agree that it is not clear what to include in Volume II and how to organize it. I will give it some thought and reply soon. |
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09-27-2017, 08:04 AM
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#2 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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1) We have not done a Draft for chapter six. Findegil has a Draft of his own but he is waiting to discuss some of the chapters I've done before he posts it. This chapter is discussed here http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php.
2) This was done at the express instruction of Tolkien himself in HoMe volume 10. He edited the numbering of all his subsequent chapters to reflect the change, so we have taken them up as separate chapters as well. I am not sure why they all have the Darkening of Valinor bit in the beginning of their title, but that was decided before I arrived. 3) It is placed there because it takes place then chronologically. A case could be made for its inclusion in volume 3 instead. It will definitely be included. 4) Óssanwë Kenta is an essay given in one of the issues of the Vinyar Tengwar which details the method of mind communication. |
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09-27-2017, 11:28 AM
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#3 | |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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Okay, I see that my categories are not good enough. Since anyway an update is needed I will re-do it here again
I have shortened the list to full chapters in volume 1. The sub-chapters are easily found in the chapter structure earlier in this thread and the status of the sub-chapters of one full chapter is normally the same. The following status classes are used: Untouched: Chapter is foreseen in the structure, but nothing more is done about it. First Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, not yet in a state ready for group discussion. Priv. Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, ready for group discussion, but not yet posted in the Forum. Draft: Compilation of text done by one member, and posted in the Forum. But up to now no discussion had started. Work in progress: Discussed in the Forum but not yet deemed finished by the members OR once deemed finished but known to be in need of substantial revision. Semi-finished: finished but with small points raised by new sources or new input that must be discussed. Finished: Done and all members are still happy with the result. Quote:
Volume 2 is in my vision of it build by two parts: ‘The Elder Day’ and ‘The Third Age’. For the first of these I did a full draft of my own. My idea was to follow the same principle as in volume 1: to report the history of that time in nearly chronological order. Therefore my Second Age stuff is more not separated between Nomenor and Middle-earth. To get a readable work some parts of the sources must then be moved freely. That means they are not found under the appropriate chapter heading, but somewhere else. I see that you do some similar thing with ‘Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age’. And I have used earlier parts of the ‘Akalabeth’ in a similar way. I envisioned the second part in a similar fain, so I foresaw more problems in the Third Age material to get a readable closed sequence. But since I never did any work in that part, don’t no if it is possible or not. By that process such works as ‘The Line of Elros and the Kings of Númenor’ would be shifted to volume 3. Beside that I would not include any text that is given in the Appendices of LotR. Sources published by JRR Tolkien himself are taboo for the project. They can and must be used as a guideline, but they are not edited in TftE. (If you envision a 5 volume TftE they might be included in full.) We might at some point use a sentence of these sources here and there, if really no other source can be found, but even than for the sack of no redundant text I would search first the appropriate HoMe volumes. That said I do not see what ‘The tale of the Years’ would include. We do not have enough of that text to create a First Age text and we do not double the Second and Third Age from the Appendices of LotR. Would ‘Cirion and Eorl’ include all the history of the Northmen as allies of Gondor? I think yes, but then the chapter title might be asking for a change. I think ‘The Istarí’ does refer to the long essay at the start of that chapter in Unfished Tales. Since that is written in retrospective, I moved it to volume 3. I removed ‘Glorfindel’, since it is included in my draft of the Second Age stuff. I removed ‘The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen’ since that is found in the Appendix to LotR. But I included ‘The New Shadow’. If it is fitting and can be edited to a satisfactory form is in question, but at least it is worth a try. In volume 3 I am not able to comment much at the time being. Beside what I explained above I only shifted the ‘Maps and Diagrams’ into the ‘Ambarkanta’. If we are really able to update maps and diagrams, then the diagrams belong here and the full scale maps should be included in the other two volumes. One side note about the work on first and private drafts: Once in the history of the project Maedhros and I had done draft for RoD in parallel. The comparison between these were a nightmare and in the end we had to change the working procedure for that chapter to get it done in a good way, and with that the hard all the work of making these drafts and comparing them was rendered nearly useless. The reason why I relatively soon made my post with the first version of this ‘state of the project list’ was exactly to avoid having again parallel drafts. And now I see that nonetheless you did work on the second age material that was already in ‘Draft’ state, and that even without re-starting the general discussion that Arvegil145 and I had of how to. I fear that in the end either your time for doing this drafts was wasted of mine. I hope it is yours, since ‘ever’ seems to be a short span in your reconing.  About gandalf85’s points: 1) ‘Of Eldamar and Princes of teh Eldalie’:As you see above that is still on my computer waiting to be posted here. The work needed to do that, is to shorten it for the public forum to as good as possible in line with copy right law and to comment on the changes I introduce. ‘Of the Darkening of Valinor: Of Finwë and Miríel’: There is nothing more finished than the text of 2004. And since the project has developed since that time the state of the chapter is ‘Semi-finished’. 2) ‘Of the Darkening of Valinor‘ is included in all the chapter headings because that was how we understood what Tolkien intended. But since all these chapters are in the ‘Semi-finished’ state this point can also be discussed. 3) gandalf85, why do you think the ‘Athrabeth’ shouldn’t been placed at its chronological place? Now after we have worked out a draft for ‘Of the Edain’ my feeling is that it is even more fitting exactly there. 4) If I remember rightly it is a part of either ‘Dangweth Pengolodh’ or ‘Essekenta Eldarinwa’ that was not included in the HoMe volume due to space restriction. (This should then as well be the placing in our volume 3.) It is correct that it was then published in Vinyar Tengwar. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 09-27-2017 at 03:21 PM. |
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09-27-2017, 05:08 PM
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#4 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Normally I would not agree that the chronological breakup of the texts is what is needed, but we have been doing this throughout Volume 1, so it is in line with the project and thus makes sense. Do not worry, I have not wasted any time on editing the second age and third age stuff, as I knew that you had a clear idea and draft of the structure. Have no fear, I will defer to your draft in this matter. The only point I would argue of your draft: Glorfindel and the Istari came during the third age, as it is told in the published Tale of Years. Thus, we should not include this in the "Black Years" section.
On that note, is the name "The Black Years" meant to be the equivalent to the "Quenta Silmarillion," because if so, I would argue we should look for a Tolkien Based document title, or a mirror name like "The History of the Rings: Quenta Million;" just a thought. The Tale of Years was indeed a risky addition of mine, but I figured we could include an entirely synthesized group of dates for major events that we post as an appendix to give some historical context to the stories. That may very well be antithetical to the project, and I do not disagree with its removal from the list. The Cirion and Eorl point may well be as you say, and we can discuss it at the time of the drafting. The Istari movement is fine as well. I only refrained from including The New Shadow because you had expressed reluctance about its inclusion when asked by Arvegil. I am glad you think now that we should include it. Consider it a late appendix by Sanwise to the Red Book that has been lost due to damage or some such. I only put the diagrams at the end bc they include the Tree of Tongues in the Lhammas, but we can put that at the end of the Lhammas. If you think that the Ossanwe should be appended to Essekenta Eldarinwa, then I will not contest. |
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09-27-2017, 09:38 PM
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#5 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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Glorfindel is not named as coming during the Third Age in 'The Tale of the Years' and in the essay it self the possibility that an Elve would be send in the Third Age is clearly denied. So at least the 'Glorfindel' part is in the 'Blackyears section.
And the Istari we have to discuss. The essay from HoMe 12 might be a proposed change that we can't use due to 'The Tale of the Years'. 'The Black Years' is Tolkien base so he probabaly never used it as a documenttitle, but as a Name of time period describt. My reservations about 'The NEw Shadow' and the argument given in the discussion with Arvegil145 are still valid, but as with so many other problematic ingredents, I think we should try and see from the result if it feasable. I did forget the Leangue-trees from the Lhammas, but would as you say include them connected to the Lhammas. Respectfully Findegil |
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09-28-2017, 04:46 AM
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#6 |
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Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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My major objection to the Athrabeth being a part of the Quenta itself is that it is primarily a philosophical discussion which really don't aid or progress the narrative of the Quenta and it may not flow well. I view it in a similar way to the "Statute of Finwe and Miriel" and the "Converse of Manwe and Eru", both of which are in Volume 3. However, if you think it works well in the draft you have I'll concede.
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10-05-2017, 02:21 PM
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#7 |
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Seeker of the Straight Path
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal
Posts: 1,680
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I can only add the project was started expressly with the purpose of maximal inclusion.
to expose more folks to the gems buried in the silm. CJRT's silm was created for a] as much consistency with lotr as could be achieved simply and create a 'canonical' silm. b] mirror jrrt's compending down from the 'great tales'. that has been done, this was, at least originally for opposite motives. if time and intention allows would love to go from peeking to diving back in, we see. Deep bow to you folks!
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The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.
Last edited by lindil; 10-05-2017 at 02:26 PM. Reason: typo |
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10-07-2017, 12:40 PM
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#8 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Well, there's certainly been a burst of activity here since I last looked in!
Welcome to the new and returning members! I would like to try to get back into the project, but with all the new drafts, it is a little overwhelming. I have also had some proposed drafts of some of these chapters sitting on my hard drive for years now, and had been waiting until we "officially" started on those sections to post them. I'm not sure if the best thing now is for me to post those for comparison with the drafts prepared by Findegil and ArcusCalion, or not. I also have notes for revision/review on several of the previously completed chapters, which again I had not yet posted until we officially revisited those chapters. I cannot now recall which of these we had already re-discussed and which we hadn't. I will try to review the recent discussions in the next few days and perhaps then will have a better idea as to how to proceed. |
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10-07-2017, 04:13 PM
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#9 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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It is a pity that it seems we all seem to have waited for the project to go on in stead of posting what we had worked out.
I would say that the list of revisions of finished (well they seem to be rather semi-finshed if you have found things to correct) chapter you should post as soon as possible in the state they are. We can sort out if there are any parts of it are no longer applicable. Respectfully Findegil |
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10-07-2017, 09:59 PM
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#10 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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All right, I've posted the notes I had on Earendil, Turin, and the Ruin of Doriath. It appears that we had already discussed and addressed my corresponding notes on Beren & Luthien, the Fall of Gondolin, and the Ruin of Beleriand.
I also have a few proposals for texts of some of the early chapters, which I'd like to sort through and then post for discussion alongside the proposals made by Findegil and ArcusCalion. I'll try to do that in the next day or two. |
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10-07-2017, 11:22 PM
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#11 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Omg can I just say that this is really exciting!
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Hybrid Mode
