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Old 08-30-2017, 03:53 PM   #1
ArcusCalion
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aaaah oki gotcha
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Old 09-08-2017, 06:29 PM   #2
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Silmaril Addition

I found a brief passage in Quendi and the Eldar: A Note on the Language of the Valar that belongs in this section. I have placed it at the very end of the last paragraph of the Cuivienyarna section.

Quote:
§44 Thus it was that when Nahar neighed and Oromë indeed came among them, some of the Quendi hid themselves, and some fled and were lost. But those that had the courage to stay perceived that the Great Rider was noble and fair and no shape out of the Darkness; for the light of Aman was in his face, and all the noblest of the Quendi were drawn towards it. CE-EX-05.2 <Q&E {when}When Oromë appeared among them, and at length some dared to approach him, they asked him his name, and he answered: Oromë. Then they asked him what that signified, and again he answered: Oromë. To me only is it given; for I am Oromë. Yet the titles that he bore were many and glorious; but he withheld them at that time, that the Quendi should not be afraid.
{Nahar, the name of Oromë’s horse. ‘}Otherwise it was{,’ says Pengolodh, ‘} with the steed upon which the Lord Oromë rode. When the Quendi asked his name, and if it bore any meaning, Oromë answered: ‘Nahar, and he is called from the sound of his voice, when he is eager to run.’>
Just some cool dialogue and name meanings.
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Old 09-09-2017, 04:49 PM   #3
Findegil
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Even nicer find! Agreed to take it.

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Old 10-08-2017, 09:45 PM   #4
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I have looked through the latest draft sent to me by Arcus and read through the comments in this thread. You guys have already come to a consensus on this, but I think the section on the weaponry of the Valar and their riding to war is too awesome not to include. I also agree with Findegil that in telling the story of the war to the Elves, the Valar would frame it in a way that Elves could understand. In Letters #212: "But the 'habitual' shapes of the Valar, when visible or clothed, were anthropomorphic, because of their intense concern with Elves and Men." A few comments:

1.
Quote:
And in that dark time Melkor bred many other monsters of divers shapes and kinds that long troubled the world; and his realm spread now ever southward over the Middle-earth.
Small spelling mistake: "divers" should be "diverse".

2.
Quote:
But the {Orks} Orcs, mockeries and perversions of the Children of Eru, did not appear until after the Awakening of the Elves.> {His realm spread now ever southward over the Middle-earth.} CE-EX-02 <AAm But {these}[the Balrogs] came not yet from the gates of Utumno, because of the watchfulness of Oromë.
Using "But" to start two sentences in a row is awkward. I propose "And" to start the second sentence.

3.
Quote:
Then Varda took the silver dews from the vats of Telperion, and therewith she made new stars and brighter against the coming of the Firstborn.
According to this passage, Varda makes "new stars". So stars already exist? Earlier we use the idea that Eru himself gives Varda the light with which to make the stars, but here we say she makes stars from the vats of Telperion. Is it just the new stars which are made from Telperion?

4.
Quote:
But three Elves awoke first of all, and they were elf-men, for elf-men are more strong in body and far more eager and adventurous in strange places.
Is this saying that elf-men are more strong in body compared to elf-women? This seems to directly contradict "Laws and Customs": "In all such things, not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal". "Quendi and Eldar" was written between 1959-1960 but looking through Morgoth's Ring I couldn't find a definite time for when "Laws and Customs" was written so I don't know which was more recent.

5.
Quote:
It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.)]: he {has}had become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering - even 'keeping the status quo'
If Tolkien himself said what is in the bold section, then I don't propose we remove it, but I would like to discuss it. This seems out of character for Manwe. In the previous section it talks about how Melkor has been greatly weakened as a person and couldn't shield himself. But here Manwe is afraid of him? And he desired to control Melkor? That seems completely out of character. It seems more likely (from my understanding of the character) that Manwe truly believed the repentance of Melkor (or that he desperately wants to believe in the repentance of Melkor).

6.
Quote:
<AAm But the kindreds of Morwë and Nurwë were unwilling and refused the summons, preferring the starlight and the wide spaces of the Earth to the rumor of the Trees.
Do we introduce Morwe and Nurwe before this point?

Overall, this is an excellent chapter. The number of different sources you guys culled from to create a coherent narrative is really impressive.
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Old 10-09-2017, 01:23 PM   #5
ArcusCalion
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1. This is a British spelling that Tolkien uses frequently in his works. In my draft I usually change them to American spelling (for myself).

2. This does indeed sound better, I will take that suggestion up into my draft.

3. In the chapter "Of the Beginning of Time" Varda makes the older stars before the Valar arrive in Arda. Thus, there are older and newer stars, the first of which she made with the light of Eru.

4. This is true, I am also unsure of the dating. I would assume that they are contemporary, and even if not, it seems more like an instance of Tolkien misremembering something he already wrote, or simply forgetting it. However, in Laws and Customs, he does give general trends in the behavior of the nerei and the nissi that say that the men are more adventerous and practice hunting more often, while the women are more concerned with lore and the home etc, while providing the qualifier that either can do whatever they want equally well. This may be an instance of Tolkien simply using a generality without providing a qualkifier, in which case it would be fine, in my opinion, to simply leave it.

5. Tolkien was trying to say that Melkor was faaar more powerful than any of the individual Valar, so that even in defeat, Manwe was wary of him. In addition, as strange as it may seem in light of Manwe's character, these are Tolkien's words, and we cannot change them simply because we do not agree with them.

6. They have not, but they have no real introduction, as Tolkien gave them none. ANy that we give them would be fabrication on our part.
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Old 10-09-2017, 02:22 PM   #6
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1. British spelling rules in Tolkiens texts.

2. Agreed.

3. In all versions Varda made new starts, while older already existed. The light given to Varda by Eru was not used for the making of starts in general, but for the sun in particular.

4. I don’t see how their can be a direct contradiction with such a quoloquial sentence as that from Quendi and Eldar! Otherwise I would say we find contradictions to it in that Essay itself easily.

5. We do normaly not add to our text and specially not without clear indication. Yes, the bolt text is in the original source text as written by JRR Tolkien.
The sence with Melkor and Manwe facing each other after so long a time does rather support that fear than deny it. Yes Melkor is shrunken so that he could no longer dount Manwe with his eyes, but none the less does it need all the Valar in assembly to ofer come him and his agents. And what Manwe feared is not told. I don’t think he feared for himself or his safety, he feared for the demage that Melkor cold work on Ea.
Manwe was Iluvatars chief instrument against Melkor in the second thema. Therefore I think it was his concern to control Melkor. That said I do nonetheless agree to your opinion that Manwe desperately wants to believe in the repentance of Melkor.

6. No we do not. But Morwe and Nurwe have in all HoMe only this one single scene. So it is either taken them up here, or skipping them for good.

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