Thrain in Dol Guldur

[Faramir Jones]

In an earlier version (Typescript B) of 'The Quest of Erebor', of which Typescript C was published in Unfinished Tales, Merry questioned Gandalf further about Thrain's map and key, and how Sauron had not taken them from him. Gandalf began by explaining that it was 9 years after Thrain had left his people when he found him; and he had been in the pits of Dol Guldur for 5 years at least. He then said:

I do not know how he endured so long, nor how he had kept these things [the map and key] hidden through all his torments. I think that the Dark Power had desired nothing from him except the Ring only, and when he had taken that he troubled no further, but just flung the broken prisoner into the pits to rave until he died. A small oversight; but it proved fatal. Small oversights often do.

How silly (and fatal) of Sauron, and how brave of Thrain, to have endured so much for so long!

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

In an earlier version (Typescript B) of 'The Quest of Erebor', of which Typescript C was published in Unfinished Tales, Merry questioned Gandalf further about Thrain's map and key, and how Sauron had not taken them from him. Gandalf began by explaining that it was 9 years after Thrain had left his people when he found him; and he had been in the pits of Dol Guldur for 5 years at least. He then said:

I do not know how he endured so long, nor how he had kept these things [the map and key] hidden through all his torments. I think that the Dark Power had desired nothing from him except the Ring only, and when he had taken that he troubled no further, but just flung the broken prisoner into the pits to rave until he died. A small oversight; but it proved fatal. Small oversights often do.

Of course; I remembered this quote as soon as you put it here, as that "rave until he died" expression has always stuck with me, and now I feel very silly for not looking into Unfinished Tales myself. As with Gandalf arriving at Isengard at night, it shows that the answer is very often already there (and I personally never look quite hard enough to find it).

I wonder then if we arrived at that conclusion anyway by sheer coincidence or if we were subconsciously remembering Typescript B

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

I wonder then if we arrived at that conclusion anyway by sheer coincidence or if we were subconsciously remembering Typescript B

Personally, I believe the latter. I oftentimes find myself thinking "I am pretty sure this and this in M-E lore went that way", even though I can't recall the exact reason why I should think so, for example when a passage in the book where the subject is discussed (and which everyone remembers) doesn't address everything, but some random forgotten footnote elsewhere does.

[Mithalwen]

In a linguistic side note, as a consequence of a discussion of a thread on Celebrian, a few years ago and at a time when my kindle was functioning, I did a search on Tolkien's use of torment and torture. in the Lord of the Rings I can't get the figures this minute but I am fairly sure that he used torment many times (about 200 if my memory serves) and torture only about four. The words are closely related reaching (Middle) English from Latin via French and meaning - near synonyms but with torment perhaps more encompassing psychological suffering while torture focuses on the practice of extracting information or behaviour or imposing punishment by inflicting pain. It is a fairly narrow distinction but Tolkien of course would be more aware than most of the nuances of his raw material and stated his preference for some (near) synonyms over others such as smite over strike. Certainly the overwhelming preference for torment over torture suggests that Tolkien was not using it as an euphemism for rape in connection with Celebrian.

However whatever his reasoning between word choice, But torment with the extra stress on psychological suffering does fit with it being more than was necessary for practical purposes. This does make it more remarkable that he retained the map and key since lower rank captors would be likely to take them because they could rather than because they had need of them or thought they had intrinsic value. Of themselves the key and map might have seemed unremarkable - merely the key to a treasure chest somewhere that no one of orcish mentality would bother to open by any other method than violence. And without the moon letters the map is just a map isn't it? Showing places that were known and I doubt many of the servants of Sauron valued documents highly. After all a staff is usually just a prop for age.

[Faramir Jones]

I'm presuming that, because of Thrain's rank, Sauron dealt with him himself; so he took the Ring off him, and didn't bother with anything else, this being the specific item he wanted. He then left Thrain to die.

With that in mind, I think that Sauron's lesser servants would have then left Thrain alone, that being what the Big Boss had done. After all, there are far less repressive organisations in which people take a lead from the top person's behaviour.

I'm also presuming that Thrain held on in the very remote possibility that someone from outside might come in, to whom he could give the map and key. That happened in the case of Gandalf; so when Thrain gave him the map and key, he was able to die having, in this small way, done his duty as the head of the House of Durin. As The Hobbit later showed, this devotion to duty paid off.

[Zigûr]

Yes, given that it seems as if Sauron was actively looking for Thráin, hence him being pursued "as soon as he was abroad", one might imagine that his immediate captors knew that he was a person of special interest and took him straight to their master without delay. While a lesser prisoner might have been robbed first, Sauron may even have given special orders for Thráin not to have been. Note that Grishnákh had orders for the captured hobbits, whom Sauron expected to have the One, that "The prisoners are NOT to be searched or plundered." While the recovery of the Seven was not as important as the recovery of the One, it's possible that similar orders were given about any high-priority targets. Sauron may have had it declared to the forces pursuing Thráin that any important-looking Dwarf they captured was to be brought to him immediately without being searched.

It might also be possible that, given his mistrust of his servants and his need to keep his intelligence close, that Sauron also forbade his servants from communicating with Thráin even after he was finished with him; he was to be imprisoned and ignored.