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#1 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,394
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Perhaps this is a matter of Saruman enveiling the reality of what had happened to Isengard through the power of his voice? By engaging with Gandalf and attempting to convince him of the rightness of his position, he distracted Gandalf from noticing what had actually happened at Isengard. Saruman's power of persuasion and the use of his voice appears to be among his greatest powers.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#2 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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I have nothing against the illusion idea, but I think it is perfectly unnecessary. As some have pointed out, it seems that the pits were not necessarily visible upon approach. Add to it the fact that Gandalf arrived in haste, barely passed through the gate (upon which the inexplicable sense of dread fell on him, which might have contributed to his distraction), and right after that he starts talking to Saruman, which distracts him further (plus, add the possibility of the Voice being used to shift his focus more on the talking and less on looking around).
Also, correct me if I don't recall properly, but I believe Gandalf says that he arrived at dusk, or maybe even after dark. That would severely limit his powers of observation. I mean, riding up the road rimmed by some newly-raised iron columns and whatnot, in a large area encircled by a wall, in twilight or even at night, you don't necessary see any pits which are, say, couple of hundred meters away from you. So I think it is the combination of all of the above (except the illusion). Strategic placement of the pits that they are not right under everybody's nose when they arrive. Limited visibility after dark. Gandalf's mind preoccuppied by "what are we going to do about the Ring?", "the Nine are abroad!!! We're doomed!!!", "I hope Frodo is still alive", "oh no what if that fool of an innkeep didn't send my letter? I'm gonna fry him" and "oh no, I have to make this arrogant colleague listen to me and endure his wannabe-intellectual condescending comments before we get to the heart of the matter". Saruman's Voice as a bonus. I don't think we need more than this to explain that no pits with Orcs were visible when Gandalf arrived. And yes, Saruman had to be at the breeding for decades, basically it would be sometime after he had locked himself up in Isengard after looking into the Stone. That still gives him a plenty of time, plus we could think about some accelerated growth for the Orcs (I don't mean cocoons, but since these were basically meant to be killing machines, and Orcs breed fast anyway, I am pretty sure you could have them reach physical maturity in several years instead of two decades).
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#3 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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Quote:
Who went to Isengard? Really no one, apart from Wormtongue. I get the impression that Gandalf and Radagast had not been there for quite a while before the event in question, and they only went because they were summoned. I don't think Saruman would have been worried about the Eagles seeing what he was up to, because before imprisoning Gandalf he was a known ally, and no one would have been watching him. So, how much trouble would Saruman have been inclined to take to conceal his pits and forges? In his pride, too, he may have thought he was naturally smarter than the rest of the Wise, and have not thought them a source of worry.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#4 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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Sauron perhaps?
I'm inclined to agree more with mundane disguises being used personally, to connect with his "mind of metal and wheels". Legate is correct as well; Gandalf arrived after dark: Quote:
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#5 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
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Moreover, it's in the nature of pits that they're hard to see unless you're close to them or on an elevation. Even minor declivities-- just ask William Prince of Orange.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#6 |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Look, I believe some people are over-complicating this. Surely Saruman's pits and things could just happen to be out of the line-of-sight of Orthanc's "front path" without him having taken any great pains with strategic placement, let alone magical concealment?
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,036
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Even traitors respect curb appeal!
Anyway I, at least, try to keep my pits hidden... hidden in bigger pits if I can find them! It's a good thing. |
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#8 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Quote:
Most people would not come to Isengard anyway, even if we imagine e.g. a bunch of Rohanian envoys who managed to get ambushed by Dunlendings, got lost in the wilderness, are in the middle of the storm and looking for shelter somewhere in that area: given common folks' general superstition, they would think "oh no, that is 'sorcerous valley', let's not go there, my aunt used to say you might turn into frog if you only drink water from one of the springs around it! Let's rather find shelter somewhere else." But, I mean, Saruman could still keep "strategic placement" of the pits in some way. In the latter stages, however, he probably didn't care and would think himself so powerful that he would rather intimidate his enemies. But Gandalf was basically about the only person in Middle-Earth he would want to fool (and okay, Radagast. But we don't even know whether they met in Isengard personally or whatever).
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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