Transmission theory: what the heck was Tolkien thinking?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, yes, IF one assumes that Tolkien was interested in synthesizing two (or three) alternate theories, rather than just picking one and chucking the rest.

I find it interesting that well after both the Myths Transformed essays and the publication of the LR, he was still writing pieces in which Pengolodh was relating lore to Aelfwine- the old Lost Tales-era transmission theory which can't be shoehorned into either of the others without a hydraulic jack!

So at various times he had 4 (or 3-1/2) theories, as follows:

1) 5th century Angle Eriol discovers the Lonely Isle (the future Great Britain) and learns the Elves' history, and witnesses its end. Recorded in "Golden Book of Tavrobel," presumably somehow preserved at Warwick. Essentially "true."

1a) 10th century Anglo-Saxon Aelfwine discovers the Lonely Isle (not Britain) and learns the Elves' history from (Rumil and) Pengolodh. Recorded in Old English, which Tolkien the OE scholar "discovered" and "translated." Essentially "true."

2) Bilbo Baggins translates history from writings in Quenya/Sindarin kept at Rivendell, records them in the mutivolume Red Book, copied in the "Thain's Book" in Gondor, ultimately "discovered" and "translated" by Tolkien the"Westron scholar" along with the earlier parts of the Red Book. Source materials in Elrond's library, and recollections of the Wise, essentially "true."

3) Numenoreans/Dunedain write down "history" which at least in its earlier parts is mingled with Mannish myths and garbles the actual facts as known to the Eldar. Transmission uncertain, but presumably similar to (2). Considerable parts not "true."

There are some real difficulties trying to reconcile any of these, like "solving" a jigsaw puzzle by hammering together pieces that don't actually fit with each other.

[Galin]

WCH wrote: I don't know if it was quite the case that Tolkien had overtly rejected the ideas he was considering in the Myths Transformed texts, so much as he was ambivalent.

Agreed upon the ideas (I don't know either), but he appears to have abandoned the texts themselves anyway (and the reference to the Dome of Varda in the Later Quenta Silmarillion is interesting, in any case).

gondowe wrote: In other way, a text like the Awakening of the Quendi never was though, in my opinion again, as a "real history tale" within the Mythology. It was said that it was "Actually written (in style and simple notions) to be a surviving elvish fairy-tale or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore".

Yes, an Elvish fairy tale; and that, I think, is the beauty of it.

Tolkien not only doesn't begin the text with an obvious statement about the sun already existing, but the source itself is arguably questionable as a "historical" source -- but then again, what does the Sun existing before the Elves awaken have to do with "counting lore", or the way in which the First Elves find each other? "It seems my father had resolved (at least for the purposes of this fairy tale) the problem of the name "Star-folk" of the Elves in a beautifully simple way: the first Elves awoke in the late night of unclouded stars, and the stars were their earliest memory." Christopher Tolkien, War of the Jewels

"At least for the purposes of the fairy tale" is noted, but the information is still there for any reader to find and wonder about, especially given the new characterization of Quenta Silmarillion, along with (as I believe) another example like DA, which challenges the Mannish idea of the shape of the World. Within this Elvish text we read that the Quendi awoke in the early twilight before dawn, for example, which would not be a controversial description from the Western Elvish perspective, and offers a nice pathway for a variant interpretation regarding the Sun.

WCH wrote: I find it interesting that well after both the Myths Transformed essays and the publication of the LR, he was still writing pieces in which Pengolodh was relating lore to Aelfwine- the old Lost Tales-era transmission theory which can't be shoehorned into either of the others without a hydraulic jack!

After The Lord of the Rings was published (first edition) yes, but what Elfwine related texts were written well after the Myths Transformed material?

[snip of two older transmission ideas] (...) 2) Bilbo Baggins translates history from writings in Quenya/Sindarin kept at Rivendell, records them in the mutivolume Red Book, copied in the "Thain's Book" in Gondor, ultimately "discovered" and "translated" by Tolkien the"Westron scholar" along with the earlier parts of the Red Book. Source materials in Elrond's library, and recollections of the Wise, essentially "true."

But at this stage we don't really know about what is essentially true with respect to each and every text, do we? Not from an internal perspective at least, I would say. And with respect to the first edition Lord of the Rings, do we really know for sure if a Quenta Silmarillion text was necessarily involved specifically, in Bilbo's material?

3) Numenoreans/Dunedain write down "history" which at least in its earlier parts is mingled with Mannish myths and garbles the actual facts as known to the Eldar. Transmission uncertain, but presumably similar to (2). Considerable parts not "true."

There are some real difficulties trying to reconcile any of these, like "solving" a jigsaw puzzle by hammering together pieces that don't actually fit with each other.

But what's the specific difficulty with the notion: Bilbo Baggins translates certain texts that have come down from the First Age, passed through Numenor, Arnor and Gondor, and ended up in Rivendell. Looking at things externally doesn't necessarily create inconsistencies internally.

Between the first and second editions, in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, it seems we can have lore reaching Rivendell from the South, and we have the Numenorean tale of Turin and Mim. And in the second edition, Tolkien adds references to suggest that Bilbo's translations from the Elvish (language) include First Age material. Compare to the First Edition, Appendix A:

"Thus the Red Book contained many annals, genealogies, and traditions of the realms of the South and the North, derived through Bilbo from the books of lore in Rivendell; or through Frodo and Peregrin from the King himself, and from the records of Gondor that he opened to them: such as The Book of the Kings, The Book of the Stewards, and the Akallabeth (that is, The Downfall of Numenor). From Gimli..."

It's not until the second, revised edition that Tolkien notes (in addition to adding the Note on the Shire Records as well): "The ancient legends of the First Age, in which Bilbo's chief interest lay, are very briefly referred to, since they concern the ancestry of Elrond and the Numenorean kings and chieftains." Appendix A

I'm still not sure what the real difficulties are regarding reconciling Bilbo with the Numenorean transmission.

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Galin

Yes, an Elvish fairy tale; and that, I think, is the beauty of it.

Tolkien not only doesn't begin the text with an obvious statement about the sun already existing, but the source itself is arguably questionable as a "historical" source -- but then again, what does the Sun existing before the Elves awaken have to do with "counting lore", or the way in which the First Elves find each other? "It seems my father had resolved (at least for the purposes of this fairy tale) the problem of the name "Star-folk" of the Elves in a beautifully simple way: the first Elves awoke in the late night of unclouded stars, and the stars were their earliest memory." Christopher Tolkien, War of the Jewels

"At least for the purposes of the fairy tale" is noted, but the information is still there for any reader to find and wonder about, especially given the new characterization of Quenta Silmarillion, along with (as I believe) another example like DA, which challenges the Mannish idea of the shape of the World. Within this Elvish text we read that the Quendi awoke in the early twilight before dawn, for example, which would not be a controversial description from the Western Elvish perspective, and offers a nice pathway for a variant interpretation regarding the Sun.

I agreed, it´s very beautiful. I only wanted to mean that independently of the sun existing previously or not, the "story" of the tale is not "real", the name of the first Elves was not Imin, Tata, Enel etc.

Of course that Tolkien wanted (at least for some years) to change the cosmological myth he developed his whole life. But he couldn't (or at the end wanted). We can assume that the real truth only is known by the Eldar and rediscovered by Men in the Modern Scientific Era.

Greetings

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The problem with trying to merge the "Numenorean" and "Bilbo" theories is simply this: if we want to postulate Bilbo as the vector for garbled Mannish traditions, it's very difficult to imagine that he would not have been told, or already know, that they were bullsh!t: by Elrond, by Glorfindel, by Gandalf, by who knows who else resident in or visiting Rivendell, house of loremasters.

After all, Glorfindel had walked across the Helcaraxe, at least according to the only version of the mythos we have; certainly he would have been in a position to tell Bilbo whether the world was round or flat in the Elder Days!

Between the first and second editions, in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, it seems we can have lore reaching Rivendell from the South, and we have the Numenorean tale of Turin and Mim. And in the second edition, Tolkien adds references to suggest that Bilbo's translations from the Elvish (language) include First Age material. Compare to the First Edition, Appendix A:

Well, I read that passage to mean that material on Gondorian history, as well as the "southern" Gondorian poems, were added by Pippin after Frodo and Bilbo's departure, and were separate from Bilbo's First Age work compiled in Elrond's house from Northern sources. And other parts of later rescensions of the Red Book were added by other hobbits down the generations, including some of the Bombadil poems etc. One of these was apparently influenced by the "Numenorean tale of Mim and the dragon," apparently a different text than Dirhavel's Narn (which wasn't Numenorean). That could have come either from Gondor by way of Piuppin or Arnor by way of Bilbo, there's no way to tell.

But I think we can discount any notion of Gondorian texts influencing Bilbo's work, since Pippin's research trips to Minas Tirith took place after Bilbo had taken ship.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The problem with trying to merge the "Numenorean" and "Bilbo" theories is simply this: if we want to postulate Bilbo as the vector for garbled Mannish traditions, it's very difficult to imagine that he would not have been told, or already know, that they were bullsh!t: by Elrond, by Glorfindel, by Gandalf, by who knows who else resident in or visiting Rivendell, house of loremasters.

After all, Glorfindel had walked across the Helcaraxe, at least according to the only version of the mythos we have; certainly he would have been in a position to tell Bilbo whether the world was round or flat in the Elder Days!

This seems to be something you find problematic -- but I don't anyway, and it appears (so far) that at least one other person in this thread doesn't either. Translating ancient materials is one thing, "correcting" them another, the latter being not only unnecessary, but given the arguably "gravity" of the ancientry (and artistry) Bilbo is dealing with, he might be expected not to alter things.

If someone handed you an ancient Greek document to translate, for example, and you knew (or were told) that five things in it were factually inaccurate, would you alter these references? That's very arguably not your job, and likewise not Bilbo's. And even then, it's not like the Hobbit need leave out evidences of the Elvish perspective if the fuller legendarium includes (as I think it would) accurately translated texts that are more Elvish in nature -- more accurately describing the world from a Western Elvish perspective even in the Mannish The Drowning of Anadune, again in which the Western Elves teach the Numenoreans that the world is round (before the fall).

I don't see why you find this problematic. Granted the following example isn't perfect for obvious reasons, but art restoration isn't about correcting the background of the Mona Lisa, for instance, simply because it might be problematic in some (arguable) way. And there's nothing in print (that I recall) that blocks a pathway to keeping Bilbo, despite the re-characterization of the Silmarilliom -- which again, allows those who are minded to find the "old" cosmology problematic (if beautiful), a path to accept it as art if not utter truth in all respects.

Well, I read that passage to mean that material on Gondorian history, as well as the "southern" Gondorian poems, were added by Pippin after Frodo and Bilbo's departure,...

If you mean the first edition Appendix A passage, I agree it could be read like that, though not only that way perhaps, but it still appears that it's possible that "Southern matter" could reach Bilbo through Rivendell. In ATB the narrator notes that though poem 6 is placed next to Bilbo's Man-in-the-Moon rhyme, it must be derived ultimately from Gondor (first suggesting, I think, that 6 couldn't be Bilbo's, but then note what is said again about this matter and Bilbo). Poems 6 and 16 must be...

"... re-handlings of Southern matter, though this may have reached Bilbo by way of Rivendell. No 14 also depends on the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Numenorean, concerning the Heroic days at the end of the First Age; it seems to contain echoes of the Numenorean tale of Turin and Mim the Dwarf."

(...) One of these was apparently influenced by the "Numenorean tale of Mim and the dragon," apparently a different text than Dirhavel's Narn (which wasn't Numenorean). That could have come either from Gondor by way of Pippin or Arnor by way of Bilbo, there's no way to tell.

Dirhaval's original wasn't Numenorean, yes. So what were Tolkien's thoughts in ATB about this tale of Turin and Mim referred to? Hard to know, but later...

As is seen in The Silmarillion. This is not an Eldarin title or work. It is a compilation, probably made in Numenor, which includes (in prose) the four great tales or lays of the heroes of the Atani, of which "The Children of Hurin" was probably composed already in Beleriand in the First Age, but necessarily is preceded by an account of Feanor and his making of the Silmarils. All however are "Mannish" works.

JRRT, The Shibboleth of Feanor, note 17, The Peoples of Middle-Earth

If a Mannish poet Dirhaval is still in play within the late idea, he's not only a Man but had his work translated into prose even in the old Elfwine scenario (as Elfwine did not think himself up to a verse translation). A prose version written by a Numenorean could be referred to as a Numenorean tale, which could (at least) agree with the reference in ATB.

And as said, Dirhaval is a Man (keeping in mind the earlier MT statement) "... but already far back -- from the first association of the Dunedain with the Eldar in Beleriand -- blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas." And then we can have his work be rendered into prose by other hands and minds in Numenor, then on to Middle-earth, ultimately to Bilbo.

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Galin

This seems to be something you find problematic -- but I don't anyway, and it appears (so far) that at least one other person in this thread doesn't either. Translating ancient materials is one thing, "correcting" them another, the latter being not only unnecessary, but given the arguably "gravity" of the ancientry (and artistry) Bilbo is dealing with, he might be expected not to alter things.

If someone handed you an ancient Greek document to translate, for example, and you knew (or were told) that five things in it were factually inaccurate, would you alter these references? That's very arguably not your job, and likewise not Bilbo's. And even then, it's not like the Hobbit need leave out evidences of the Elvish perspective if the fuller legendarium includes (as I think it would) accurately translated texts that are more Elvish in nature -- more accurately describing the world from a Western Elvish perspective even in the Mannish The Drowning of Anadune, again in which the Western Elves teach the Numenoreans that the world is round (before the fall).

I don't see why you find this problematic. Granted the following example isn't perfect for obvious reasons, but art restoration isn't about correcting the background of the Mona Lisa, for instance, simply because it might be problematic in some (arguable) way. And there's nothing in print (that I recall) that blocks a pathway to keeping Bilbo, despite the re-characterization of the Silmarilliom -- which again, allows those who are minded to find the "old" cosmology problematic (if beautiful), a path to accept it as art if not utter truth in all respects.

I agree. It´s the same again. We have a "subcreated" world, and we have to assume that as subcreated it has the same rules that the "created" at least in the way Tolkien devised and explained in his essays.
We know that the world was not, to say, a piece of one god or derived from the semen of another one, even that one god create the world in six days and the seventh rested.
But we keep on reading these myths "Translated": Greeks, Nordic, Egyptian, Jude-Christian etc, because they are beautiful.

But we are moving in the speculation. And as I say before in other parts of this forum we can complicate our thoughts as far as we want. It could be easier.

Perhaps Glorfindel didn't want to talk about the First Age. Perhaps even Bilbo never asked Elrond about the creation. He only was interested in dramatic, epic tales. Perhaps....

Greetings

[Galin]

I begin to think that The Adventures of Tom Bombdil becomes notably important here, as Tolkien chooses to characterize the lore of Rivendell as Elvish and Numenorean, and characterizes a First Age tale as Numenorean.

We can't discount that Bilbo used living sources in Rivendell, as well as written, as this information is then also published a few years later in the Note On The Shire Records. There were other Exiled Noldor in Rivendell besides Glorfindel, but we can use him for examples -- the question is: what kind of help did the living sources provide?

I would say why not imagine that Glorfindel is a living source for an Elvish-perspective tale, or an Elvish linguistic document, or details about Gondolin, for example. Again, would it even be Glorfindel's part to correct a Mannish compliation called The Silmarillion, or any of the ancient Numenorean works that have already been sitting in the vaults of Rivendell long before Bilbo Baggins came along? Maybe Glorfindel told Bilbo the "true" tale of Ambarussa for example, in which it is said that: "In the night Feanor, filled with malice, aroused Curufin, and with him and a few of those most close to Feanor in obedience he went to the ships and set them all aflame; and the dark sky was red as with a terrible dawn."

Maybe Bilbo asks Glorfindel: is it true that the First Elves awoke before the Sun existed? And for answer Glorfindel says "no"[*] and digs out a document called the Cuivienyarna, which is noted as being "preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar." Again, represent the Elvish point of view, don't correct the Mannish Silmarillion -- and in any case, if Glorfindel has read this Mannish compilation, he knows that:

"A note should say that the Wise of Numenor recorded that the making of stars was not so, nor of Sun and Moon. For Sun and stars were all older than Arda. But the placing of Arda amidst stars and under the [?guard] of the Sun was due to Manwe and Varda before the assault of Melkor"

JRRT Myths Transformed, note to text I

Christopher Tolkien took this to mean: "that the making of the Sun, Moon and stars were not derived from Elven lore."

*perhaps Glorfindel would say something like CJRT here,... rather than "No"

As late as 1971 [Letter 325] as I read the following, Tolkien even had the Sindar as possibly contributing some material that might not be quite as informed as that of the Exiles: "But the Legends are manly of "Mannish" origin blended with those of the Sindar (Grey-elves) and others who had never left Middle-earth." (actually the letter reads "Gray-elves" in my copy)

Not leaving Middle-earth arguably equates to another level of separation from the teachings of the Valar, in my opinion (despite contact with the Exiles), but again, if even some of the Wise of Numenor have already noted the "truth" about the Sun and Stars, I see little need to alter the Silmarillion proper (that tale itself) to reflect the Elvish perspective in all matters.


Edit: Ah, didn't see Zigur's last post before I blathered on.

Nice and concise! What Zigur said, then

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

it's very difficult to imagine that he would not have been told, or already know, that they were bullsh!t: by Elrond, by Glorfindel, by Gandalf, by who knows who else resident in or visiting Rivendell, house of loremasters.

But why would that stop him from wanting to translate the Númenórean legends? I always thought that one of the reasons Bilbo did the "Translations from the Elvish" was because he was interested in the language and the stories; I never got the impression that "learning the truth about history" was ever a particular goal.

In relation to Galin's argument, I feel like the untrue nature of the Númenórean legends being a problem for Bilbo would be like a modern person who was interested in Ancient Greek not wanting to work on Hesiod's Theogony because it's not a true account of the formation of the world, or perhaps to bring it closer to home an Old Norse enthusiast being uninterested in Völuspá for the same reason.