Sauron the Gene-maker

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I'm just saying that one has to consider the Hobbits at that point were absolutely miserable. So, perhaps, these obnoxious flies seemed simply orkish, but weren't necessarily Sauronian.

Perhaps. It's just odd that Mordor is the only place we see such flies. Normal flies can be nasty too, and the idea of the passage doesn't change if the red blotch part was taken out of it. Like maggots and midgets, they would just be creating the atmosphere. But instead they become "special edition" flies.

I'm not saying Tolkien implied genetic engineering, in the literal sense, with that description. But it's something to speculate about for fun, and I feel that red-dotted flies didn't just happen to live in the land where everything had a red eye painted on it.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Perhaps. It's just odd that Mordor is the only place we see such flies. Normal flies can be nasty too, and the idea of the passage doesn't change if the red blotch part was taken out of it. Like maggots and midgets, they would just be creating the atmosphere. But instead they become "special edition" flies.

I'm not saying Tolkien implied genetic engineering, in the literal sense, with that description. But it's something to speculate about for fun, and I feel that red-dotted flies didn't just happen to live in the land where everything had a red eye painted on it.

Flies are different around the world, aren't they? I mean other than common house flies. I've seen certain flies on trips out of the country or even out of state that are different from the ones where I live. Were the "hungry midges" the same species as up by Bree? What you have to ask yourself is would Sauron have a fly breeding program exclusive to Mordor? Did he do it as a light-hearted diversion from breeding sun-resistant trolls and Uruk-hai?

All I am saying is the perception of the Hobbits could be that they likened the flies to Orcs because of the red blotch that looked suspiciously like it was "eye-shaped".

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Flies are different around the world, aren't they? I mean other than common house flies. I've seen certain flies on trips out of the country or even out of state that are different from the ones where I live. Were the "hungry midges" the same species as up by Bree? What you have to ask yourself is would Sauron have a fly breeding program exclusive to Mordor? Did he do it as a light-hearted diversion from breeding sun-resistant trolls and Uruk-hai?

Not necessarily. I'm beginning to lean more and more in favour of Nerwen's interpretation, that Sauron's surroundings might have been altered through "magical pollution" (love that term!). Sauron didn't have to necessarily breed flies of a certain colour for his influence to be present in subtler ways. And yes, I agree with you that the perception is through hobbit eyes, and the link with orcs might have been just in their head. The passage serves to show how horrid and disgusting was any life that could exist in Mordor, and the comparison is meant to underscore that feeling. That doesn't contradict that the mood of the place is in part dictated by Sauron's will.

To take your argument, no, not all thorny horrible maggot-ridden plants are Sauron's. But the only plants we see in his land are of that kind. Could other plants have grown there if the land wasn't corrupted? Probably. Probably some did, and maybe, many years after the Ring's destruction, once the land heals, some will again. That doesn't change that nothing but the meanest life could survive under his rule. With Tolkien's extensive use of pathetic fallacy and description of nature to reflect its inhabitants, this isn't a big leap at all.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Not necessarily. I'm beginning to lean more and more in favour of Nerwen's interpretation, that Sauron's surroundings might have been altered through "magical pollution" (love that term!). Sauron didn't have to necessarily breed flies of a certain colour for his influence to be present in subtler ways. And yes, I agree with you that the perception is through hobbit eyes, and the link with orcs might have been just in their head. The passage serves to show how horrid and disgusting was any life that could exist in Mordor, and the comparison is meant to underscore that feeling. That doesn't contradict that the mood of the place is in part dictated by Sauron's will.

To take your argument, no, not all thorny horrible maggot-ridden plants are Sauron's. But the only plants we see in his land are of that kind. Could other plants have grown there if the land wasn't corrupted? Probably. Probably some did, and maybe, many years after the Ring's destruction, once the land heals, some will again. That doesn't change that nothing but the meanest life could survive under his rule. With Tolkien's extensive use of pathetic fallacy and description of nature to reflect its inhabitants, this isn't a big leap at all.

Good post. I would agree the hypothesis you render could easily be correct. Nature or nuture? The environment was obviously nasty and thus like real-world nasty places creatures and plants adapt to the hostile nature of the area. It seems to me many desert or harsh environments have barbed or thorny plants simply as a defense mechanism, or did Sauron plant the devil's garden?

[Galin]

Painting flies was part of the Art Yucco movement.

I'm sorry.

But I think I've found the problem: the quote above says files not flies -- yer all readin' it wrong, despite the buzz in the air.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Good post. I would agree the hypothesis you render could easily be correct. Nature or nuture? The environment was obviously nasty and thus like real-world nasty places creatures and plants adapt to the hostile nature of the area. It seems to me many desert or harsh environments have barbed or thorny plants simply as a defense mechanism, or did Sauron plant the devil's garden?

Here's the thing, though. I'm not even sure Mordor was always as barren as we see it in the time of the Ring. The Second Age was never my strong suit, but if I remember correctly, Sauron has inhabited Mordor for quite a long time before he even began to mess with Numenor (and please correct me if I'm wrong). Do we know what Mordor looked like before Sauron took hold of it? It's true what you say about the environment... My question is: is it possible that Sauron himself shaped the environment?

Somehow, given the significance of the way nature looks in the rest of the story, I've always assumed Mordor would not be as barren if it wasn't for Sauron. Perhaps it's not explicitly stated one way or the other, but Sauron has definitely corrupted Mirkwood's nature, and he was there much less time.

Originally Posted by Galin

But I think I've found the problem: the quote above says files not flies -- yer all readin' it wrong, despite the buzz in the air.

Buzzing, stinging paperwork? No wonder everyone hates Mordor.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

The Second Age was never my strong suit, but if I remember correctly, Sauron has inhabited Mordor for quite a long time before he even began to mess with Numenor (and please correct me if I'm wrong). Do we know what Mordor looked like before Sauron took hold of it?

Check the chapter The Land of Shadow where Sam and Frodo escape Frodo's captivity. For instance at the bottom of a valley was "the bed of a now dry and withered stream" and "Mordor was a dying land, but not yet dead".