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Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
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#1 |
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Deepest Forges of Ered Luin
Posts: 733
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No, I meant the ostensibly democratic republic in which I live; it shares the characteristic of being run by a distant, unapproachable cabal of bureaucrats. :-)
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Even as fog continues to lie in the valleys, so does ancient sin cling to the low places, the depression in the world consciousness. |
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#2 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 144
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#3 |
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The Deepest Forges of Ered Luin
Posts: 733
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__________________
Even as fog continues to lie in the valleys, so does ancient sin cling to the low places, the depression in the world consciousness. |
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#4 |
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Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 81
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Another thought regarding Mordor: I can't really prove it with quotes but I get the distinct impression that Saurons Rule, the "political structure" of his empire in the third age is also "medieval", that is to say feudal, indirect and "looser" than in the second age. Yes he rules over Mordor directly, but the peoples and states in Khand, Harad, Far-Harad, Umbar and Rhun seem to be more or less autonomous. I guess that they have to nominally acknowledge and worship Sauron as God-King, probably send tributes and provide troop contingents during war time, but apart from that Sauron doesn't seem to care all that much and they seem to be more or less left to themselves, they don't seem to be tightly controlled, centrally governed provinces of a continental empire (that's how I picture Saurons realm during the second age). Maybe Sauron would have turned his attention to his Vassals after his final victory against the West and complete the subjugation. While the fight against the west was still ongoing he maybe allowed a certain amount of freedom because he needed the manpower of the East and South but it wouldve been too time- and resource consuming for him to directly conquer the whole area and rule it directly (like he did in the second age) and he wanted to avoid a war on two (or three) fronts ... So he acted diplomatically towards his human "allies" for the time being ...
Of course that's all speculation ... Last edited by denethorthefirst; 07-20-2016 at 06:58 PM. Reason: Grammar |
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#5 | |
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Wight
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 144
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Quote:
But a Feudal structure is not incompatible with a Centrally ruled Tyranny. It would just mean that all power was concentrated into the hands of a very small ruling class (The Black-Nśmenóreans, or their descendants, for example). We do have a few statements, for instance, that Khamūl ruled over the East of Rhūn. And that Harad was largely a Tributary to Mordor, autonomous, and under the control of what seems to be a scattered grouping of Tribal Authorities. We really have not a lot to go on. But the point I think people are making re-Modernity is that Tolkien was using Mordor to caricature, and mock modern-day Nation-State's Bureaucracies, which he saw during the First World War become downright "evil" in their conduct of that war (impersonal, and capricious). And thus Mordor, even if ultimately a Feudal State (Sauron as absolute Ruler, with petty Lords ruling the various strongholds) was a nightmare of everything that could go wrong in a Modern Nation-State where Ideology was more important than actual results. MB |
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#6 | ||
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Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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Quote:
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This seems heavily implied by the Mouth of Sauron's "terms" for Middle-earth west of Anduin should the Free Peoples have surrendered to Sauron: a "tributary" governed from a strong place, in this case Isengard, which is simply an outpost or colonial headquarters of a foreign authority, much like any other colonial power. It seems to me that increasingly imperialist Nśmenor was much the same. This is why, when considering the Nśmenórean Ringwraith question, I imagine "colonial lords" lost in the enormous bureaucracy of a vast state who seize power for themselves while playing lip service to the home government, as it were - a "Mister Kurtz" situation and a modern concern. Certainly if one reads the Nśmenor sections of "The Lost Road" distinct totalitarian overtones can also be noticed, such as political disappearances. denethorthefirst your comparison to totalitarian regimes of the twentieth century was clear and to the point and I wholeheartedly agree.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#7 |
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Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 81
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But the totalitarianism of Saurons Rule seems to be limited to Mordor: it is clearly a totalitarian, dystopian Dictatorship, but outside of his directly ruled heartland, Saurons rule seems to be a lot more indirect.
Im just playing devils advocate here (i don't believe this) but you could argue that it didn't really matter for the average peasant in Rhun or Far-Harad if his local Ruler pledged allegiance to Sauron or some distant King in Minas Tirith ... I don't believe this because this interpretation would obviously lessen Sauron as a credible threat and villain and render the whole struggle somewhat moot. Even if he didn't (need to) directly rule the East and the South with an iron fist, Saurons Influence was still negative (regular Tributes, negative cultural and religious practices like human sacrifices, corrupt local elites, etc.). |
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