"Tolkien's Modern Middle Ages"

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

Wut?

Mordor a Democratic Republic?

I did not get the feeling that the Orcs got to vote on anything.

This isn't a reference to that Russian Monstrosity?

MB

No, I meant the ostensibly democratic republic in which I live; it shares the characteristic of being run by a distant, unapproachable cabal of bureaucrats. :-)

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

No, I meant the ostensibly democratic republic in which I live; it shares the characteristic of being run by a distant, unapproachable cabal of bureaucrats. :-)

Turkey? Iran?

The USA?

MB

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

Turkey? Iran?

The USA?

MB

Why, the good, ole USA, naturally.

[denethorthefirst]

Another thought regarding Mordor: I can't really prove it with quotes but I get the distinct impression that Saurons Rule, the "political structure" of his empire in the third age is also "medieval", that is to say feudal, indirect and "looser" than in the second age. Yes he rules over Mordor directly, but the peoples and states in Khand, Harad, Far-Harad, Umbar and Rhun seem to be more or less autonomous. I guess that they have to nominally acknowledge and worship Sauron as God-King, probably send tributes and provide troop contingents during war time, but apart from that Sauron doesn't seem to care all that much and they seem to be more or less left to themselves, they don't seem to be tightly controlled, centrally governed provinces of a continental empire (that's how I picture Saurons realm during the second age). Maybe Sauron would have turned his attention to his Vassals after his final victory against the West and complete the subjugation. While the fight against the west was still ongoing he maybe allowed a certain amount of freedom because he needed the manpower of the East and South but it wouldve been too time- and resource consuming for him to directly conquer the whole area and rule it directly (like he did in the second age) and he wanted to avoid a war on two (or three) fronts ... So he acted diplomatically towards his human "allies" for the time being ...
Of course that's all speculation ...

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

Another thought regarding Mordor: I can't really prove it with quotes but I get the distinct impression that Saurons Rule, the "political structure" of his empire in the third age is also "medieval", that is to say feudal, indirect and "looser" than in the second age. Yes he ruled over Mordor directly, but the people and states in Khand, Harad, Far-Harad, Umbar and Rhun seem to be more or less autonomous. I guess that they had to nominally acknowledge Sauron as God-King, probably send tributes and provide troop contingents during war time, but apart from that Sauron doesn't seem to care all that much and they seem to be more or less left to themselves, they don't seem to be tightly controlled, centrally governed provinces of a continental empire (that's how I picture Saurons realm during the second age). Maybe Sauron would have turned his attention to his Vassals after his final victory against the West and complete the subjugation. While the fight against the west was still ongoing he maybe allowed a certain amount of freedom because he needed the manpower of the East and South but it wouldve been too time- and resource consuming for him to directly conquer the whole area and rule it directly (like he did in the second age).
Of course that's all speculation ...

That tends to be the impression I had as well.

But a Feudal structure is not incompatible with a Centrally ruled Tyranny.

It would just mean that all power was concentrated into the hands of a very small ruling class (The Black-Númenóreans, or their descendants, for example).

We do have a few statements, for instance, that Khamûl ruled over the East of Rhûn. And that Harad was largely a Tributary to Mordor, autonomous, and under the control of what seems to be a scattered grouping of Tribal Authorities. We really have not a lot to go on.

But the point I think people are making re-Modernity is that Tolkien was using Mordor to caricature, and mock modern-day Nation-State's Bureaucracies, which he saw during the First World War become downright "evil" in their conduct of that war (impersonal, and capricious). And thus Mordor, even if ultimately a Feudal State (Sauron as absolute Ruler, with petty Lords ruling the various strongholds) was a nightmare of everything that could go wrong in a Modern Nation-State where Ideology was more important than actual results.

MB

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

We do have a few statements, for instance, that Khamûl ruled over the East of Rhûn.

I can't find statements to this effect. Khamûl was an Easterling, but no reference to him in Unfinished Tales, which, to the best of my knowledge, is the only text in which he is named, says that he ruled in Rhûn, only that he was "the Shadow of the East" and "the Black Easterling", but in command of Dol Guldur.

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

Another thought regarding Mordor: I can't really prove it with quotes but I get the distinct impression that Saurons Rule, the "political structure" of his empire in the third age is also "medieval", that is to say feudal, indirect and "looser" than in the second age.

An interesting thought, and if I may focus on the "modernity" question (rather than too much speculation on things internal to the narrative) we might imagine Sauron having a "sphere of influence", as it were, in a like manner to the way in which the world was carved up among the Allies towards the end of the Second World War (or as had been the case when the world was more or less divided between eight Great Powers before the First).

This seems heavily implied by the Mouth of Sauron's "terms" for Middle-earth west of Anduin should the Free Peoples have surrendered to Sauron: a "tributary" governed from a strong place, in this case Isengard, which is simply an outpost or colonial headquarters of a foreign authority, much like any other colonial power.

It seems to me that increasingly imperialist Númenor was much the same. This is why, when considering the Númenórean Ringwraith question, I imagine "colonial lords" lost in the enormous bureaucracy of a vast state who seize power for themselves while playing lip service to the home government, as it were - a "Mister Kurtz" situation and a modern concern. Certainly if one reads the Númenor sections of "The Lost Road" distinct totalitarian overtones can also be noticed, such as political disappearances.

denethorthefirst your comparison to totalitarian regimes of the twentieth century was clear and to the point and I wholeheartedly agree.

[denethorthefirst]

But the totalitarianism of Saurons Rule seems to be limited to Mordor: it is clearly a totalitarian, dystopian Dictatorship, but outside of his directly ruled heartland, Saurons rule seems to be a lot more indirect.
Im just playing devils advocate here (i don't believe this) but you could argue that it didn't really matter for the average peasant in Rhun or Far-Harad if his local Ruler pledged allegiance to Sauron or some distant King in Minas Tirith ...
I don't believe this because this interpretation would obviously lessen Sauron as a credible threat and villain and render the whole struggle somewhat moot. Even if he didn't (need to) directly rule the East and the South with an iron fist, Saurons Influence was still negative (regular Tributes, negative cultural and religious practices like human sacrifices, corrupt local elites, etc.).