Where do elves get metal?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

Just as a Start:

http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/gl...predation.html

The Lotka-Volterra Equations detail a rather detailed relationship between types of predation, of both predator and prey-populations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotka–Volterra_equations


And aside from the Generalized Lotka-Volterra Equations, there is the issue of Mutualism between a predator and prey population when modeling the population sizes and relationships:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual...tical_modeling

In the latter example, this is where the two populations share one or more traits, or functions in the environment.

All of these are dependent upon a Carrying Capacity of the Environment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrying_capacity

...and the Lotka-Volterra Equations show the interrelationships of these Carrying Capacities.

Also important is the "Impact of Human Activity on the Environment" described by Dr. Paul Erlich's I = PAT equations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_%3D_PAT

In terms of Middle-earth, this is a very important term, as that of Humanity and Elves (or Hobbits) needs to be greater than that of Orcs, lest you wind up with a world where the Orcs quickly destroy the Carrying Capacity of the entire "planet" (or habitable regions of the world with which we are concerned).


I = PAT

is:

Impact = Population * Affluence * Technology

In Middle-earth, this impact is nearly non-existent save for in the regions of:

• The Shire.
•*Dale/Erebor
•*Mordor
•*Gondor
•*Rohan
•*And likely in Harad and Rhûn as well, since we are told these areas are fairly highly populated.

But given that 'A' and 'T' are so low, the Impact isn't very great, and thus the effect upon Carrying Capacity isn't hugely affected (which is not to say that it is not affected at all - over time the Impact can be cumulative).

I=PAT, though, can really only be significantly considered once you have an idea of GDP of an area.

This can be estimated in Middle-earth based upon Medieval Data about what was required for a typical person to live, and then estimating the populations of the regions based upon the population models created by the Lotka-Volterra models

Do you need anything else?

If you have your own Foundational Postulates and Coherent Metaphysical and Theological Systems upon which Middle-earth operates, please feel free to elaborate.



MB

Thank you for elaborating, but as I said, Marhwini, I'm afraid all you've got there is assumption and conjecture. Equations tell you nothing if you have no numbers to plug into them in the first place.

And no of course I don't have any Foundational Postulates or Coherent Metaphysical and Theological Systems upon which Middle-earth operates. C'mon, mate, you are taking yourself, and the subject, far too seriously.

X'd with Marhwini.

[Nerwen]

Marhwini, speculation about Middle-earth is not misguided- it's what the site's for!

Confusing your speculations with fact is very misguided indeed.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Marhwini, speculation about Middle-earth is not misguided- it's what the site's for!

Confusing your speculations with fact is very misguided indeed.

Magic talking troll purses are evidence of sophisticated voice recognition security devices indicative of troll's highly advanced software developments in the late 3rd Age. It is believed that descendents of trolls eventually created the internet.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Magic talking troll purses are evidence of sophisticated voice recognition security devices indicative of troll's highly advanced software developments in the late 3rd Age. It is believed that descendents of trolls eventually created the internet.

What was that about Trolls?

It's pretty easy to mock something that you don't understand (or are trying very hard to dismiss, and thus not understand).

Because if you did understand what I had proposed, you'd understand what Talking Purses for Trolls were in terms of The Hobbit (or at least the options available for what was going on with the Trolls).


MB

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

What was that about Trolls?

It's pretty easy to mock something that you don't understand (or are trying very hard to dismiss, and thus not understand).

Because if you did understand what I had proposed, you'd understand what Talking Purses for Trolls were in terms of The Hobbit (or at least the options available for what was going on with the Trolls).
MB

I am aware that a talking purse is a folkloric motif Tolkien inserted to add whimsy (complete with a lowbrow accent) to a scene. I am also aware it played no part cosmologically, ontologically or allegorically to any larger, integrated system of science Tolkien was allegedly contemplating in an effort to make his story 'whole'.

I also know that the statement:

"If you have your own Foundational Postulates and Coherent Metaphysical and Theological Systems upon which Middle-earth operates, please feel free to elaborate."

is perhaps the single most pompously sententious sentence ever typed on any Middle-earth forum since the World Wide Web was first developed by descendants of Shelob and Bert the Troll's great-great-great grand nephew, Timmy.

This is the second time you've indicated that I "don't understand" the speculative palaver you're shoveling; on the contrary, I know conjecture when I see it, even when it is couched in rococo verbosity, and more so when these proclamations from the mount are offered in episodic sermons for we lesser mortals.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I am aware that a talking purse is a folkloric motif Tolkien inserted to add whimsy (complete with a lowbrow accent) to a scene. I am also aware it played no part cosmologically, ontologically or allegorically to any larger, integrated system of science Tolkien was allegedly contemplating in an effort to make his story 'whole'.

I also know that the statement:

"If you have your own Foundational Postulates and Coherent Metaphysical and Theological Systems upon which Middle-earth operates, please feel free to elaborate."

is perhaps the single most pompously sententious sentence ever typed on any Middle-earth forum since the World Wide Web was first developed by descendants of Shelob and Bert the Troll's great-great-great grand nephew, Timmy.

This is the second time you've indicated that I "don't understand" the speculative palaver you're shoveling; on the contrary, I know conjecture when I see it, even when it is couched in rococo verbosity, and more so when these proclamations from the mount are offered in episodic sermons for we lesser mortals.

And I'll say it a third time:

If you don't understand the point of what I have been talking about, then I don't suspect you ever well.

Nor do I suspect that you will understand a great deal of what Tolkien was trying to do in his later works, either.

Because what I am doing is a continuation of what he was doing: Looking for a Coherent Foundation for his world.

Brushing it off a "Fiction" is more than a little missing the point. There is a Logical Consistency that Tolkien was trying to obtain that was more than just Logical Validity, but was Logically Sound as well, within Middle-earth.

And that might very well be a pompous statement I made.

But it is a direct paraphrase of a Quote of Tolkien's, as to what he was trying to achieve from the years following the Completion of The Lord of the Rings until his death.

Tolkien's world had rules. Like ours. And they are not arbitrary rules. They abide by Sciences just like our world does.

He said so. MANY, MANY TIMES.

And just like I do not need to be ON an Exoplanet to begin studying its composition:

http://seagerexoplanets.mit.edu/research.htm

I don't need to be IN Middle-earth to discover most of these rules (if not all of them).

Nor does anyone else.

But the fact that I seem to be the only person (here, at least, as I have worked with at least three other people who worked at the same thing) interested in exploring what they might be is more than a little surprising to me.

That people seem to think that the events in Middle-earth (even if fictional) are simply an arbitrary arrangement is puzzling.


MB

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

And I'll say it a third time:

If you don't understand the point of what I have been talking about, then I don't suspect you ever well.

Nor do I suspect that you will understand a great deal of what Tolkien was trying to do in his later works, either.

You mistake a disinterest in listening to prolix peregrinations with an inability to comprehend said maundering.

You don't know me, or what I know, and you probably never will. Unlike you, I don't find it necessary to bolster my sagging self-esteem by making statements like "I was weaned on Joseph Campbell's teat." Just because you saw him in a bookstore signing autographs for The Power of Myth in the 80s holds no fascination for me. If I wish to indulge in dry monomyth wrangling and broken paradigms, I'll merely pick up my copy of The Hero with a Thousand Faces.

I simply find your repetitive desiccated theorizing tedious, and anti-Tolkien, relatively-speaking. I shall expound further below.

Originally Posted by Marwhini

Because what I am doing is a continuation of what he was doing: Looking for a Coherent Foundation for his world.

You are not Tolkien, sir. You do not follow in his footsteps, nor do you continue his work. Because you lack his humanity, his conversational skills, and you are devoid of his humor. Dry toast needs a pat of butter. You, sir, need some butter.

Originally Posted by Marwhini

But the fact that I seem to be the only person (here, at least, as I have worked with at least three other people who worked at the same thing) interested in exploring what they might be is more than a little surprising to me.
That people seem to think that the events in Middle-earth (even if fictional) are simply an arbitrary arrangement is puzzling.

You are an island, an island no one wishes to visit; rather, like Devil's Island, where the shackled residents wish to escape.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

It is believed that descendents of trolls eventually created the internet.

Trolls certainly seem to be the ones who use it the most...

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Marhwini, speculation about Middle-earth is not misguided- it's what the site's for!

Confusing your speculations with fact is very misguided indeed.

I am not confusing them for fact.

I am simply pointing out that a means of deriving answers for Middle-earth that do not produce contradictions exists.

And that this seems to be what Tolkien was trying to achieve.

That he could not do so does not mean that it isn't possible.

MB

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Thank you for elaborating, but as I said, Marhwini, I'm afraid all you've got there is assumption and conjecture. Equations tell you nothing if you have no numbers to plug into them in the first place.

And no of course I don't have any Foundational Postulates or Coherent Metaphysical and Theological Systems upon which Middle-earth operates. C'mon, mate, you are taking yourself, and the subject, far too seriously.

X'd with Marhwini.

We have numbers to plug into them (We have Tolkien's estimates for a population of Hobbiton, Gondor, and Rohan; and we have even more precise numbers given in the sizes of the military forces for Gondor and Rohan, which have very specific ratios for an Army:Population for any given period of time - just as a start).

At the very least those are some pretty good estimates.

And we have other estimates we can derive from the size and distances of various settlements.

And there are reasons for "taking this too seriously" (as you put it) that have to do with modeling it as an operational virtual world.

That is more than just turning it into a game (which isn't our intention).

And to do that, you need to have an idea of how things work.

I am taking it no less seriously than did Prof. Tolkien.

MB