The New Shadow - Your thoughts?

[Marwhini]

I saw that "Debate."

And I am more than a little suspicious of it's motives, and how closely it mirrors Truth, given the respective participants, and the words it puts in the mouths of the participants.

To me it seems a little too much like Evangelical Opportunism and propaganda.

It does touch upon differences between GRRM and Tolkien (however ephemerally).

But I am talking about something much less abstract than is inferred in the video.

MB

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

I saw that "Debate."

And I am more than a little suspicious of it's motives, and how closely it mirrors Truth, given the respective participants, and the words it puts in the mouths of the participants.

To me it seems a little too much like Evangelical Opportunism and propaganda.

It does touch upon differences between GRRM and Tolkien (however ephemerally).

But I am talking about something much less abstract than is inferred in the video.

MB

I understand your point in that it was produced by the Catholic church but it doesn't negate the fact the Lewis and Tolkien friendship is well known for these deep discussions on the nature of life and creation.

My understanding is this was observed by one of their other friends and Tolkien and Lewis had many such discussions over the course of their friendship.

I imagine it was in part Tolkien's friendship and these kind of discussions that moved Lewis from Atheism to deep spirituality and books like A Grief Observed and Mere Christianity and other like writings later in his life.

[Faramir Jones]

I like this thread, and feel I first need to put down what Tolkien is recorded (by himself) as saying about the abortive work.

In Letter 256 of the published Letters, dated 13th May 1964, sent to Colin Bailey, Tolkien said that the work 'proved both sinister and depressing'. As it was dealing with Men, it was inevitable that they should be concerned with 'the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety with good'. He went on to say this:

So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice and prosperity, would become discontented and restless - while the dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and governors - like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret Satanic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being Orcs and going around doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller' about the plot and its discovery and overthrow - but it would be just that. Not worth doing.

In a later letter, of 6th June 1972 to Father Douglas Carter, Letter 338 of those published, Tolkien had this to say about the work:

the beginning of a tale supposed to refer to the end of the reign of Eldaron about 100 years after the death of Aragorn. Then I of course discovered that the King's Peace would contain no tales worth recounting; and his wars would have little interest after the overthrow of Sauron; but that almost certainly a restlessness would appear about them, owing to the (it seems) inevitable boredom of Men with the good: there would be secret societies practising dark cults, and 'orc-cults' among adolescents.

It is clear from what Tolkien wrote that his heart wasn't in his attempt to write The New Shadow. I had wondered since first reading the Letters what the fragment was like, and got my opportunity after Volume 12 of The History of Middle-earth appeared. Like you, Nerwen, I found the fragment attractive, and wanted to read more; but I fully understood why Tolkien abandoned it, although what he might have finished would, I believe, be far, far better than most of what appears under the guise of 'fantasy'.

In Letter 187 of the Letters, one of 16th April 1956 to H. Cotton Minchin, Tolkien said:

Historians require more details about the social and political structure of Gondor, and the contemporary monetary system; and the generally inquisitive wish to be told more about Drúadan, the Wainriders, the Dead Men, Harad, Khand, Dwarvish origins, the Beornings, and especially the missing two wizards (out of five).

I would have liked some of the above in preference to a completed The New Shadow. However, I would have especially liked to know more about Meriadoc Brandybuck's works, particularly Herblore of the Shire.

[Pitchwife]

GRR Martin's ambition to explore 'a more realistic Middle-earth' clearly needs to be taken with not a grain, but a generous pinch of salt. From a writer in a genre where comparisons to Tolkien tend to pop up in jacket blurbs and reviews of every new work of notice, this is nothing but a marketing statement saying that he wants to do something more realistic with the genre, something closer to our own world; to criticise him for neglecting the metaphysical foundations of Middle-earth is to miss the point.

As for The New Shadow, I love it for its glimpses of life in early Fourth Age Gondor, as well as for its dialogue and character interaction between Borlas and Saelon. That's some fine writing, especially in their debate about the rights of trees - which raises questions that Tolkien, both a Christian and an early environmentalist, must himself have pondered on occasion. I wouldn't have minded finding out Saelon's true stance about the conspiracy, or who or what was behind 'Herumor' (not a mere surviving Orc, I think; at the very least a Black Númenórean, but a corrupted Blue Wizard or some other disciple of a dark cult from the East would have fit the job nicely).

It could have worked well as a thriller with occult or horror trappings. As a sequel to LotR I don't think it would have been viable, simply because the reduced stakes would make it rather anticlimactic after the cataclysm of Sauron's fall, but as a side piece to the legendarium at large in the manner of, say, The Mariner's Wife I would have found it enjoyable.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

GRR Martin's ambition to explore 'a more realistic Middle-earth' clearly needs to be taken with not a grain, but a generous pinch of salt. From a writer in a genre where comparisons to Tolkien tend to pop up in jacket blurbs and reviews of every new work of notice, this is nothing but a marketing statement saying that he wants to do something more realistic with the genre, something closer to our own world; to criticise him for neglecting the metaphysical foundations of Middle-earth is to miss the point.

I don't entirely agree with you here. From everything I've ever read on his statements on the matter, Martin does seem to be a genuine admirer of Tolkien's work and is knowledgeable about it. As a motivation, I think that was a real part of Martin's inspiration. What I fault him on is his execution.

In Martin's defense he did not start referring to himself as "the American Tolkien." Others did that. However, it certainly has started appearing on a lot of marketing materials since then.

It could have worked well as a thriller with occult or horror trappings. As a sequel to LotR I don't think it would have been viable, simply because the reduced stakes would make it rather anticlimactic after the cataclysm of Sauron's fall

It almost in a way would have been a bit tedious...or sordid...or some word in between those two.

[Pitchwife]

Oh, I won't debate that GRRM is a genuine Tolkien fan and therefore may have thought that 'a more realistic Middle-earth' was the best way to describe his intentions, or that he attempted to emulate Tolkien in the scope of his world; I mean, he rather obviously paid hommage to the Professor at some points (Valar morghulis). My comment was more a reply to Marhwini's claim that any such attempt 'needs to be approached on Tolkien's terms' - GRRM is not actually writing about Middle-earth, Robert Baratheon isn't Aragorn, so there's no reason for him to bother with Tolkien's 'coherent theological and metaphysical system'. It's entirely possible to be a reverent fan and still do things totally different from Tolkien - and now I feel I've rather overstated my point and will shut up about this.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

It almost in a way would have been a bit tedious...or sordid...or some word in between those two.

Sordious?
Sordid I get, I think, as in dragging the reader down into the dregs of the human condition after the elating eucatastrophe of Sauron's fall and the Return of the King (but didn't The Scouring of the Shire already do that?). Tedious, I dunno - for him to write, or for us to read?