Where do elves get metal?

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

My point was that he does not mention a great deal of things (even within this letter there is a great deal left unstated or unaddressed - One such Example is the Predator-Prey relationship of Middle-earth in terms of the Human/Hobbit/Dwarf/Elf population to the Populations of the Orcs/Trolls/etc. - If you look at such typical relationships, even among omnivorous apex competitor-predators, such as Bears, you find that Middle-earth's population of Humans/Hobbits/Dwarves/Elves isn't large enough to support a Predatory population that he provides of Orcs and Trolls).

Although I agree with you overarching point this example is very odd. The predator-prey relationship between Men/Hobbit etc and Orcs is not explicitly laid out that's true but most probably because none existed. Sure the Orcs are not averse to human flesh if given the chance but to suggest that there should be a finely balanced eco-system where Orcs as the top predators are prowling at the outskirts of society with humans as their preferred prey is preposterous I must say. Seems like their mainstay was agricultural products such as bread, just like it was for Men.

And the Trolls, as described in the Hobbit... they don't really fit in to the latter, more realistic Middle Earth at all, do they? Seems like they come straight out of a Fairy Tale without any regard for a consistent metaphysical of teleological system. Besides, it seems like their mainstay is stealing cattle from farmers or possibly raising them themselves. Cooking a bunch of Dwarves was obvious a novelty for them.

[Faramir Jones]

I agree with skip here, Marwhini, in that while I agree with your overarching point, the example you gave was odd.

While there are indications that Orcs ate human flesh, and had no problems with doing so, I don't think we have enough information to indicate that they did this on a regular basis.

I would disagree with you, skip, in terms of the eating habits of the trolls in The Hobbit. You thought that 'it seems like their mainstay is stealing cattle from farmers or possibly raising them themselves. Cooking a bunch of Dwarves was obvious a novelty for them'.

If we look at the book, we first hear and see, from Bilbo's point of view, the three trolls eating mutton and drinking beer. However, one, Tom, is complaining about not having eaten 'manflesh' for a long time, criticising another, William, for bringing them into those parts. William pointed out to Tom and Bert, the third troll, that they ate 'a village and a half' between them, since they came down from the mountains. It's quite clear that they also eat, and have eaten, men.

Tolkien then said that Bilbo should have tried some good quick burgling, or else have told the dwarves that there were three trolls 'in a nasty mood, quite likely to try tosted dwarf, or even pony, for a change'. To men, we can add that trolls like to eat dwarf, as well as pony. Their liking for dwarves is later confirmed; because when Tom saw Balin, he gave 'an awful howl', the reason being that 'Trolls simply detest the very sight of dwarves (uncooked)'.

To be fair to the trolls, they are quite prepared to try new things, in terms of agreeing to eat a hobbit. Later, after the trolls have turned to stone, and their cave found, Bilbo, Gandalf and the dwarves find 'bones on the floor and a nasty smell was in the air', and also find 'lots of clothes', Tolkien telling us they belonged to the trolls' victims.

It's therefore quite clear from what we read that those trolls like eating humans, dwarves, possibly ponies, and are prepared to eat hobbit. While they are prepared to eat sheep and possibly pigs, they seem to prefer beings on two legs. They might, like the pigs in Animal Farm, agree with the slogan, 'Four legs good, two legs better'.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

It's therefore quite clear from what we read that those trolls like eating humans, dwarves, possibly ponies, and are prepared to eat hobbit. While they are prepared to eat sheep and possibly pigs, they seem to prefer beings on two legs. They might, like the pigs in Animal Farm, agree with the slogan, 'Four legs good, two legs better'.

Haha you are quite right of course. Haven't read The Hobbit in ages.

Having read the Lord Of The Rings within memory's grasp I can't help but wonder into what parts Bill, Bert and Tom strayed earlier to find such plentiful game. The lands West of the Misty Mountains seems all but empty of people in the latter book. Maybe the trolls ate 'em all.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Having read the Lord Of The Rings within memory's grasp I can't help but wonder into what parts Bill, Bert and Tom strayed earlier to find such plentiful game. The lands West of the Misty Mountains seems all but empty of people in the latter book. Maybe the trolls ate 'em all.

Well, it was said that Dwarves still traveled the Great East Road fairly regularly, and maybe even the Dúnedain were occasional prey of the trolls. I seem to recall Aragorn's grandfather being killed by them.

[Faramir Jones]

You're right, Inziladun. According to The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, Arador was 'taken by hill-trolls in the Coldfells north of Rivendell and was slain'.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Haha you are quite right of course. Haven't read The Hobbit in ages.

Having read the Lord Of The Rings within memory's grasp I can't help but wonder into what parts Bill, Bert and Tom strayed earlier to find such plentiful game. The lands West of the Misty Mountains seems all but empty of people in the latter book. Maybe the trolls ate 'em all.

This is one of the problems Tolkien seemed to be trying to explain in his later days.

One possible solution is that the lands were occupied, just not with a sufficient number of people to form a collective civilization of any kind.

For instance, we know that the Dúnedain still existed into at least the thousands in the Third Age (The minimum to retain a genetic viability). That would mean at least one or two significant settlements, at least.

And that the Dúnedain were outnumbered by Men in the area... So the rest of the Population of Arnor was not wholly destroyed, but certainly diminished beyond an ability to form any type of State, or collective aid. We did see areas like this in Europe at various times, especially after some of the various Plagues that swept through Europe.

So taken that the Trolls mentioned a "Village and a half" in regions far to the North in Eriador, we can expect that scattered villages existed throughout the region... They are just not brought into the stories, especially not The Lord of the Rings as the entire trip through Eriador was made with the intention of avoiding all observation (save for the stop in Bree). So... They would have avoided all known established settlements or villages in Eriador, which I imagine Gandalf and Aragorn would have been especially aware of.

Outside of Eriador, we do see pretty significant settlement of humans. It is likely that Dunland is an example of how occupied the rest of North Western Middle-earth is. There are enough disparate villages to support a population of a few hundred thousand (In all of Eriador), which makes it roughly 1/10th the Population density of Europe during the Middle-Ages at its lowest population (which contained only a few million people - I cannot remember which Black Death it was that caused the deaths of almost ⅔ of the population, but it left Europe nearly "Vacant" as far as population goes).

And we know that in the northern valleys of the Anduin that the people of Beorn had multiplied to populate that region. And Dale had re-established itself as a sizable realm.

MB

[skip spence]

Come on man, you are much too serious, I'm sure Tolkien would tell you the same.

I guess the problem is you are too sure of yourself.

I mean... We all know that Tolkien was a tinkerer, he was trying to make everything fit together as the world grew and was enrichened. Which is why I said that Bill and Bert and Tom don't really fit into the latter, more developed Middle Earth, for some of the reasons you've touched, I understand that.

It's just, your reading that Orcs are some allegoric Alfa-preditor of our society is a bit much really.

EDIT. I do enjoy your speculation though, so please take no offence!

[Zigûr]

We know from The Hobbit that the Orcs of the Mountains used slaves for their manufacturing purposes:
"Hammers, axes, swords, daggers, pickaxes, tongs, and also instruments of torture, they make very well, or get other people to make to their design, prisoners and slaves that have to work till they die for want of air and light."

Perhaps they produced food in the same way, although it's unclear to me where they would have found the land for such agriculture. But one imagines they could not have maintained their extensive, if petty, realms in the Misty Mountains and the Grey purely by raiding the Woodmen and so on.

We do know, however, that "sometimes used to go on raids, especially to get food or slaves to work for them." So perhaps they partially relied on raiding and partially had some subsistence of their own devising. But it does not appear that the Orc-raids, at least insofar as they are depicted in The Hobbit, were altogether regular.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Come on man, you are much too serious, I'm sure Tolkien would tell you the same.

I guess the problem is you are too sure of yourself.

I mean... We all know that Tolkien was a tinkerer, he was trying to make everything fit together as the world grew and was enrichened. Which is why I said that Bill and Bert and Tom don't really fit into the latter, more developed Middle Earth, for some of the reasons you've touched, I understand that.

It's just, your reading that Orcs are some allegoric Alfa-preditor of our society is a bit much really.

EDIT. I do enjoy your speculation though, so please take no offence!

They aren't an Allegory, nor are they an Alpha-predator.

They are simply a predatory species, one of many, which happen to coexist alongside man. Technically they are a mixed-predator, where some of their sustenance comes from predation, and some through self-production (but that still does not correct the problem).

As for taking this "too seriously..."

Tolkien tended to do that himself. In addition to p. [I]x[I] of Morgoth's Ring there are half a dozen places in Letters where he talks about the Sciences Internal to Middle-earth, and that these would be just as discoverable as those in our world.

Tolkien admitted his ignorance in these areas. But that doesn't mean those of us who are not ignorant of those Sciences cannot then look to see how they might function given the quote on p. [I]x[I] of Morgoth's Ring. We needn't be IN Middle-earth to do this, any more than we need to be ON an exoplanet to begin learning things about its composition (or any one of thousands of other means of indirect observation and Science).

The simple fact is:

Orcs have to eat. Orcs need to build houses. Orcs need to have children.

These take resources. Those resources take space to produce (space that we have objective measure of, and can predict what we would see given a certain type of population).

As for being "Sure of myself...."

Well... No... I am sure of the numbers I have. But I remain very unsure of many aspects lacking others who are formally trained in the specific sciences who are also as familiar with Tolkien. And, unfortunately, the few who are currently have so little time to devote to it (Such as Dr. DJ Lundt, who did an excellent Meteorological Study of Middle-earth - yet after speaking to him about it, we discovered that he had two major flaws in his study that would have affected localized weather patterns, or generalized weather patterns should the Valar have intervened; as they did in a few events).

Currently, all I have at my disposal who have a science background of some sort (whether hard or soft) is a Medical Doctor who specializes in Genetic Pathologies (helpful for how Morgoth could have managed to affect or corrupt existing species to create the "monsters), a collection of Zoologists, Ornithologists, and Biologists at a couple of Zoos in the USA to help with habitat and population distributions (which includes humans), a Physicist, who only has a couple of days every few months to work on problems dealing with some very esoteric aspects the nature of matter and energy in Middle-earth, and...

Myself, who has formal training in Art History & Comparative Religions and Myths (having studied with Joseph Campbell in the 1980s - this covers Theology, Myth, Sociology, Anthropology, and Religious History), as well as more recent training in the Cognitive Sciences, and Computational & Systems Biology (both interdisciplinary fields, which cover from Linguistics, to Computer Science, Biology, and Neuroscience - The latter of these fields is called "Cybernetics"). I do not yet have a graduate degree in these, as I had to drop out my senior year at UCLA due to old injuries I have causing severe health problems that could still cost me my legs. Otherwise... I would not have the time to devote to this study, and would instead be up to my elbows in epithelial cells and intestinal linings (I was studying how to create synthetic intestines, and gut-tissue).

The goal we are looking for is a Unified Theory to explain Middle-earth, and the associated specific disciplines that would explain its structure. We have a working theory, explained in another post.

As I said in the post no one seems to want to pay any attention to. A LOT of people tend to either not understand what this means, and thus they either simply reject it, or they miss the relevance of certain issues.

MB

[Marwhini]

And I am aware of what Cuckoos are.

My little-sister is an Ornithologist. We do not call Cuckoos outright parasites, because they are not preying directly upon a host-animal. But the behavior of the Cuckoo is parasitic in nature. It is stealing resources from a system that are not the results of its efforts.

The technical term is a "Brood-Parasite:"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brood_parasite

And, no, my point isn't that Orcs subsist solely by plunder, but that plundering is a vital aspect of their character, as is simple mindless destruction (whether they make use of that which they destroy or not).

Nor are they entirely mutually dependent, as is a Cuckoo (The Cuckoo needs the prey population, in the same way that a leech or mosquito needs prey populations. Without them, they cannot reproduce). The Orcs can reproduce without humans, as indeed this is their goal (to wipe them out, and/or enslave them).

But both prior to achieving the goal of Enslaving humanity (or wiping them out), they exist in a relationship as that of predator-prey (We saw that in other human cultures that preyed upon other humans: Pirates, Slave-traders, and Nomadic Warbands).

And whether they are stealing from the humans, elves, and hobbits, or simply destroying infrastructure, that theft needs to be replaced, or accounted for by the prey of the Orcs.

This means that there is a minimum sized population of Humans, Elves, and/or Hobbits that would be required to:

1) Remain alive, and sustainable (even if dwindling, there are relationships that predict the rate of decline, or the rate of growth, or simple equilibrium of the population).

2) Support a given population of Orcs.

These are two different functions.

In the first case, it has to do with an Orc population causing damage to a Human, Elf, and/or Hobbit society, and the letter's ability to recover from it.

And in the second case, it has to do with a Human, Elf, and/or Hobbit population being large enough to support a given Orc population.

This is a Feedback System (and there remain other "nodes" in the system; both those for which I have not yet accounted, and those for which I have accounted - such as the availability of Wild Game, which would affect both Human, Elf, and Hobbit populations, AND the Orc populations).

It is a little difficult to illustrate a Feedback System in text, as they look a little like a computer flow-chart or Neural Network Diagram, but with numbers in the lines connecting nodes to indicate the strength of the relationship, and how it impacts another node.

So, as a sort of simplified Feedback System.

Men <3/1–1/2> Orcs

This would be a simplified feedback system indicating that it takes three Men to support one Orc in two given populations (one of Men, one of Orcs), and that two Orc tends to result in the death of One Man in the process. The first numbers in each set describing the first relationship, and the second number in each set represents the second relationship. You could break this down into two one-way relationships:

3 Men –> 1 Orc
1 Man <– 2 Orcs

But just the basic generalized knowledge we currently have about similar relationships between groups shows that the Human (or Elf, and/or Hobbit) population in Middle-earth would need to be larger than is indicated.

There are suggestions that Tolkien was aware of this in a few of the Letters he wrote concerning the creation of the Map for the LotR not having anywhere near the needed settlements and other details that would have existed, and that it ONLY contained the details relevant to the action within the Book, and a general overall geography.

If I were not in a hospital at the moment, I could reference the letters, as I marked them up for other research I am doing on Physiognomy in Middle-earth, yet much of the information seems applicable here as well.

MB

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Haha you are quite right of course. Haven't read The Hobbit in ages.

Having read the Lord Of The Rings within memory's grasp I can't help but wonder into what parts Bill, Bert and Tom strayed earlier to find such plentiful game. The lands West of the Misty Mountains seems all but empty of people in the latter book. Maybe the trolls ate 'em all.

This is one of the problems Tolkien seemed to be trying to explain in his later days.

One possible solution is that the lands were occupied, just not with a sufficient number of people to form a collective civilization of any kind.

For instance, we know that the Dúnedain still existed into at least the thousands in the Third Age (The minimum to retain a genetic viability). That would mean at least one or two significant settlements, at least.

And that the Dúnedain were outnumbered by Men in the area... So the rest of the Population of Arnor was not wholly destroyed, but certainly diminished beyond an ability to form any type of State, or collective aid. We did see areas like this in Europe at various times, especially after some of the various Plagues that swept through Europe.

So taken that the Trolls mentioned a "Village and a half" in regions far to the North in Eriador, we can expect that scattered villages existed throughout the region... They are just not brought into the stories, especially not The Lord of the Rings as the entire trip through Eriador was made with the intention of avoiding all observation (save for the stop in Bree). So... They would have avoided all known established settlements or villages in Eriador, which I imagine Gandalf and Aragorn would have been especially aware of.

Outside of Eriador, we do see pretty significant settlement of humans. It is likely that Dunland is an example of how occupied the rest of North Western Middle-earth is. There are enough disparate villages to support a population of a few hundred thousand (In all of Eriador), which makes it roughly 1/10th the Population density of Europe during the Middle-Ages at its lowest population (which contained only a few million people - I cannot remember which Black Death it was that caused the deaths of almost ⅔ of the population, but it left Europe nearly "Vacant" as far as population goes).

And we know that in the northern valleys of the Anduin that the people of Beorn had multiplied to populate that region. And Dale had re-established itself as a sizable realm.

MB

[Inziladun]

Marwhini, looks like you just reposted your #47.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Although I agree with you overarching point this example is very odd. The predator-prey relationship between Men/Hobbit etc and Orcs is not explicitly laid out that's true but most probably because none existed. Sure the Orcs are not averse to human flesh if given the chance but to suggest that there should be a finely balanced eco-system where Orcs as the top predators are prowling at the outskirts of society with humans as their preferred prey is preposterous I must say. Seems like their mainstay was agricultural products such as bread, just like it was for Men.

And the Trolls, as described in the Hobbit... they don't really fit in to the latter, more realistic Middle Earth at all, do they? Seems like they come straight out of a Fairy Tale without any regard for a consistent metaphysical of teleological system. Besides, it seems like their mainstay is stealing cattle from farmers or possibly raising them themselves. Cooking a bunch of Dwarves was obvious a novelty for them.

That Orcs depended upon agricultural products means they had to get them somewhere.

If they grew them themselves, then they needed a lot of land on which to do so. While Mordor had the fertile lands of Nurn to feed them, this is not the case for the Hithaeglir.

I bring this up because it was things exactly like this with which Tolkien struggled in his later days, looking specifically for the rules by which the world operated (for which this would be one).

And Orcs do not need to be capturing and eating people to make them predators. That isn't what I meant by that relationship.

Their relationship with all of civilization is that of a predator, who preys upon "Civilization" itself (ruining it, in some fashion).

The manner in which it "Ruins" civilization is secondary.

For instance: Cuckoo Birds have the same Predator:Prey relationship as do raptors like Hawks, Owls, and Eagles with their Prey.

Except the Cuckoo Bird isn't preying upon the other birds to eat them. It is preying upon them to raise their young.

The Cuckoo isn't exactly what you would call a "Parasite" either. But Parasites tend to have similar relationships in populations as do Predator:Prey populations.

And the Orcs fit into a similar relationship with Elves, Hobbits, and Men. They Prey upon the civilization itself, whether taking time to replace things simply destroyed outright, or in replacing things stolen, or people killed, or kidnapped.

Tolkien did not want Middle-earth to be simply a "Fairy Tale."

At the end (from the 1950s onward), he was looking specifically for the "underlying postulates" that formed a "coherent theological and metaphysical system." (p. x of Morgoth's Ring). Those words imply that he needed things to have an explanation for How they worked, and not just that they existed within Middle-earth. They needed a reason to explain their existence, and a means by which they operated (a Metaphysical Explanation).

MB

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

That Orcs depended upon agricultural products means they had to get them somewhere.

If they grew them themselves, then they needed a lot of land on which to do so. While Mordor had the fertile lands of Nurn to feed them, this is not the case for the Hithaeglir.

I bring this up because it was things exactly like this with which Tolkien struggled in his later days, looking specifically for the rules by which the world operated (for which this would be one).

And Orcs do not need to be capturing and eating people to make them predators. That isn't what I meant by that relationship.

Their relationship with all of civilization is that of a predator, who preys upon "Civilization" itself (ruining it, in some fashion).

The manner in which it "Ruins" civilization is secondary.

For instance: Cuckoo Birds have the same Predator:Prey relationship as do raptors like Hawks, Owls, and Eagles with their Prey.

Except the Cuckoo Bird isn't preying upon the other birds to eat them. It is preying upon them to raise their young.

The Cuckoo isn't exactly what you would call a "Parasite" either. But Parasites tend to have similar relationships in populations as do Predator:Prey populations.

Actually cuckoos *are* generally considered to be parasites. They practise a nesting strategy known as "brood parasitism", with victim species being the "hosts".

Anyway, what is the "similar relationship"? Do you mean the fact that ultimately both predators and parasites are dependant on their victims and thus can't afford to wipe them out? Or what?

And the Orcs fit into a similar relationship with Elves, Hobbits, and Men. They Prey upon the civilization itself, whether taking time to replace things simply destroyed outright, or in replacing things stolen, or people killed, or kidnapped.

So your point is that Orcs subsist *entirely* by plundering other species? Is there a source for that?