Treebeard and the One Ring

[skytree]

The Balrog and the One Ring thread got me thinking of what would have transpired if Frodo and the One Ring had come through Fangorn and into the presence of Treebeard? Would it have had any affect on him? Given his awesome strength and stature within ME would he have been able to use the ring to any effect? Would he have recognized it for what it was? Would it have had any affect on him or would he have has been as weary as Faramir and dismissed the thought of using or possessing it in the same way?

[Zigûr]

Perhaps you ought to gather some quotes and present a theory to us about what you think would happen.

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Perhaps you ought to gather some quotes and present a theory to us about what you think would happen.

I don't recall Faramir being motivated by such emotions and he seemed to pity his enemies and feel some empathy.

Treebeard not so much. He was wise and kindly but I remember after the Entmoot when he was discussing Saruman with Merry and Pippin and said something like. "Down with Saruman!, there is no curse in tounges of Elves, Ents, or Men for such treachery!"

Would his desire to protect and his anger against the tree hewing and burning allowed the Ring to whisper to those desires? Maybe?

It seemed like there was a rage in their power and destruction of Isengard.

"'When Treebeard had got a few arrows in him, he began... to get positively "hasty", as he would say. He let out a great hoom-hom, and a dozen more Ents came striding up. An angry Ent is terrifying. Their fingers, and their toes, just freeze on to rock; and they tear it up like bread-crust. It was like watching the work of great tree-roots in a hundred years, all packed into a few moments.

'They pushed, pulled, tore, shook, and hammered; and... in five minutes they had these huge gates just lying in ruin; and some were already beginning to eat into the walls.... I don't know what Saruman thought was happening; but anyway he did not know how to deal with it.'....

'He seems at one time to have got round them, but never again. And anyway he did not understand them; and he made the great mistake of leaving them out of his calculations. He had no plan for them, and there was no time to make any.... As soon as our attack began, the few remaining rats in Isengard started bolting through every hole that the Ents made. The Ents let the Men go, after they had questioned them, two or three dozen only down at this end. I don't think many orc-folk, of any size, escaped. Not from the Huorns: there was a wood full of them all round Isengard by that time....

'When the Ents had reduced a large part of the southern walls to rubbish... Saruman fled in a panic....

'When Saruman was safe back in Orthanc, it was not long before he set some of his precious machinery to work. By that time there were many Ents inside Isengard... they were roaming about and doing a great deal of damage. Suddenly up came fires and foul fumes: the vents and shafts all over the plain began to spout and belch. Several of the Ents got scorched and blistered. One of them, Beechbone I think he was called, a very tall handsome Ent, got caught in a spray of some liquid fire and burned like a torch: a horrible sight.

'That sent them mad. I thought that they had been really roused before; but I was wrong.... It was staggering. They roared and boomed and trumpeted, until stones began to crack and fall at the mere noise of them.... Round and round the rock of Orthanc the Ents went... storming like a howling gale, breaking pillars, hurling avalanches of boulders down the shafts, tossing up huge slabs of stone into the air like leaves.... I saw iron posts and blocks of masonry go rocketing up hundreds of feet, and smash against the windows of Orthanc. But Treebeard kept his head. He had not had any burns, luckily. He did not want his folk to hurt themselves in their fury, and he did not want Saruman to escape out of some hole in the confusion. Many of the Ents were hurling themselves against the Orthanc-rock; but that defeated them.... [They] could not get a grip on it, or make a crack in it; and they were bruising and wounding themselves against it. So Treebeard went out into the ring and shouted. His enormous voice rose above all the din. There was a dead silence, suddenly. "

I actually think he might be more susceptible than some of the other wise in ME. I think there was a deep anger at Saruman and his treachery and the Orcs and their tree hewing and burning and maybe the ring could have played upon it.

[Marwhini]

The one overriding quality of the Older Ents was Patience and Caution.

Just in line behind that was consideration, reflection, and thought about the consequences of any action.

Given these two things, it is highly unlikely that Treebeard would even want the One Ring to come within Fangorn Forest.

As Fangorn (Treebeard) would realize that even if he had rejected the One Ring, there might be a younger, hastier Ent, or, even worse, a Huorn who might be willing to lay claim to the One Ring.

The Ents were also Children of Eru, so they too would be susceptible to the One Ring's corrupting influence.

But the Ents were also among the oldest enemies of The Enemy (Be that Morgoth or Sauron). And they were rather like Faramir in not wishing to resort to the devices of The Enemy. The Ents simply had too much respect for Life, in whatever form, even if they were "... not altogether on anyone's side..."

Recall that it was Fangorn who "cooled the heads" of the Ent and Huorn attack on Isenguard during their rage, and they got positively methodical about what to do.

So.... I imagine that Fangorn (Treebeard) would likely have put the One Ring somewhere deeply guarded (likely a hole in a rock, with a giant slab of rock laid over it, with a ring of impenetrable Thorn-Tree Ents surrounding it), while they searched for Gandalf to consult him over what to do with the One Ring.

And then we would be right back to where we began.

However. . .

Should the unthinkable have occurred, and an Ent taken up the One Ring, that would be a very dangerous situation indeed.

The Ents would set the ring to re-foresting the Planet, and likely the Trees would become very hostile to any life that did not appropriately appease them.

Life for Humanity, Elf, Dwarf, Hobbit, or even Orc would become nearly impossible (at least without the Entwives, as they would be needed for any Agricultural areas to survive).

The World would end as a giant, wild, untamed Forest and Jungle. And Fangorn, or whichever Ent took up the ring would become as the World Tree in Norse Myth.

MB

[Marwhini]

On another note...

What is up with the theme of:

What would happen if X got the Ruling Ring?

Is this something people are going to apply to every inhabitant of Arda?

Also.... The point I made in the thread regarding the Metaphysics of Middle-earth should make this question trivial to answer for any person once you have an Operational Metaphysics (and, as Tolkien also sought a Theology, that should not be neglected).

From these two Foundations come every aspect of Middle-earth, including HOW the One Ring operates, and WHAT it does beyond the vague descriptions given by Tolkien.

For instance.... How does one make Baryonic Matter "invisible?"

There are actually answers for that question that deal with actual Physics, and with Physics that would exist within Middle-earth where various forms of Property Dualism are True that are not True in our Universe; creating a bit of a Paradox of "Middle-earth is our Earth" - obviously it isn't, but the intent is that it is.

Meaning that Arda needs to hew as closely as possible to the Physics, Chemistry, and Biology of our world/universe, while having some Thing (something: Some Property or Properties) that allows what we perceive as "Magic" to exist within Arda. Yet recall that Tolkien tended to think of "Magic" as being "occult," or "necromantic," and that what the Elves and Valar did, that we call "Magic" was just a Natural part of their being (and many Humans also produced abilities we think of as "Magic" when they were properly attuned to the world).

Figure out what that "Thing" (property or Properties) is, and you have your answer to most questions regarding Middle-earth.

There does remain only some questions of Psychology or qualities of different characters, places, or things within Arda at that point. But this is no different than our Universe (we have most of the underlying Metaphysics in our Universe - we have just not yet completely assembled the resulting Physics from them).


Note:

As far as the One Ring goes.... That was a pretty original leap of imagination to question about Fangorn or the Ents getting ahold of it.

They are about the least "Motivated" to do harm, or to seek Power in Middle-earth, yet would likely be the most dangerous to have the One Ring in Middle-earth as well.

They, of all creatures save the Elves, seem to have their "Morgoth-Element" most under control, even though they likely possess a substantial amount of that Element within each of them (compared to Elves).



MB

[skytree]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

On another note...

What is up with the theme of:

What would happen if X got the Ruling Ring?

Is this something people are going to apply to every inhabitant of Arda?

Also.... The point I made in the thread regarding the Metaphysics of Middle-earth should make this question trivial to answer for any person once you have an Operational Metaphysics (and, as Tolkien also sought a Theology, that should not be neglected).

From these two Foundations come every aspect of Middle-earth, including HOW the One Ring operates, and WHAT it does beyond the vague descriptions given by Tolkien.

For instance.... How does one make Baryonic Matter "invisible?"

There are actually answers for that question that deal with actual Physics, and with Physics that would exist within Middle-earth where various forms of Property Dualism are True that are not True in our Universe; creating a bit of a Paradox of "Middle-earth is our Earth" - obviously it isn't, but the intent is that it is.

Meaning that Arda needs to hew as closely as possible to the Physics, Chemistry, and Biology of our world/universe, while having some Thing (something: Some Property or Properties) that allows what we perceive as "Magic" to exist within Arda. Yet recall that Tolkien tended to think of "Magic" as being "occult," or "necromantic," and that what the Elves and Valar did, that we call "Magic" was just a Natural part of their being (and many Humans also produced abilities we think of as "Magic" when they were properly attuned to the world).

Figure out what that "Thing" (property or Properties) is, and you have your answer to most questions regarding Middle-earth.

There does remain only some questions of Psychology or qualities of different characters, places, or things within Arda at that point. But this is no different than our Universe (we have most of the underlying Metaphysics in our Universe - we have just not yet completely assembled the resulting Physics from them).


Note:

As far as the One Ring goes.... That was a pretty original leap of imagination to question about Fangorn or the Ents getting ahold of it.

They are about the least "Motivated" to do harm, or to seek Power in Middle-earth, yet would likely be the most dangerous to have the One Ring in Middle-earth as well.

They, of all creatures save the Elves, seem to have their "Morgoth-Element" most under control, even though they likely possess a substantial amount of that Element within each of them (compared to Elves).



MB

I guess the intrigue comes from the fact Treebeard like the Balrog, IMHO might be one of the individuals of ME who might encounter the ring and not necessarily become it's thrall. I suppose when the fellowship broke at Amon Hen, there is a scenario where Frodo could have been captured as Merry and Pippin were and the ring to have come to Fangorn.

[Mithadan]

I will act like the Elves and say neither yea nor nay.

One the one hand, the Ents, and Fangorn in particular, seem to be very self-interested. He does not care much for the world outside Fangorn because the world does not care much for the Ents. This seems to be a favorable basis for the Ring to take root and influence Treebeard to take it up if it became available.

On the other hand, Treebeard reminds me of Bombadil. He might be unconcerned with the possibility of domination of lands and peoples beyond his borders. No, I am not saying that it would have no apparent effect upon him, as old Tom demonstrated. Rather, that it would not be attractive to him and his tree-ish personality.

On the other hand... can we have a third hand?

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by skytree

I guess the intrigue comes from the fact Treebeard like the Balrog, IMHO might be one of the individuals of ME who might encounter the ring and not necessarily become it's thrall. I suppose when the fellowship broke at Amon Hen, there is a scenario where Frodo could have been captured as Merry and Pippin were and the ring to have come to Fangorn.

If we apply the Many-Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics to Middle-earth, then absolutely there is a scenario where Frodo is captured at Amon Hen, instead of Merry and Pippin. But I have suspicions about the application of, or operations of Quantum Mechanics in Middle-earth being completely identical to our own. I could write a huge screed on it if someone wanted.

But in a purely fictional-fiction within the story of The Lord of the Rings, exploring a "what if," this remains the same case... That is the One Ring came to Fangorn/Treebeard, he would be loath to have anything to do with it. I don't think he would be "immune" to it as such. It is more that he, and the other Ents, are so cautious about everything that they would be sure to keep it at a great distance until they had sorted out what to do about it (and being the product of the "World of Men" they would seek out a Man, probably Gandalf - although he's not really a "man" - to inquire as to what should be done about this very dangerous object).

Although I don't think the Balrog (or Ents) would remain "immune" to the effects of the One Ring. I just think it (the Balrog) would be more likely to understand its value to Sauron, and thus return it to him.

As technically the Balrogs were subservient to Sauron... At least as I argue.

MB

[denethorthefirst]

Of course Treebeard would be tempted by the ring and after a while become enslaved to it. Why shouldnt that be the case? He is a living being with wishes and desires: he longs for the time of the first age, he misses the forests and wants to protect fangorn, he misses the Entwives and fears for the survival of his race. The ring would be able to exploit these fears and desires. Remember the delusions of grandeur Sam experienced when he whore the ring: he would turn Mordor into a garden, etc. Treebeard would probably experience something similar and i dont think that he would be able to resist. Maybe he would have the wisdom of Gandalf and reject the ring or remove its presence before it can corrupt him, but Treebeard doesnt seem to know all that much about Ring-Lore and the Politics of Middle-Earth so it could be that he wouldnt recognize the danger. Treebeard is not all knowing and has a rather limited perspective regarding Middle-Earth.

Regarding the Balrog: in my opinion he is not subservient to Sauron and probably does not accept his "Authority" in any way, shape or form. Why would he? From the Balrogs perspective Sauron is probably a Traitor and Usurper. That doesnt mean that the Balrog wouldnt be tempted by the one ring if he found it, but i dont think its likely that he would return it to Sauron.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

Of course Treebeard would be tempted by the ring and after a while become enslaved to it. Why shouldnt that be the case? He is a living being with wishes and desires: he longs for the time of the first age, he misses the forests and wants to protect fangorn, he misses the Entwives and fears for the survival of his race. The ring would be able to exploit these fears and desires. Remember the delusions of grandeur Sam experienced when he whore the ring: he would turn Mordor into a garden, etc. Treebeard would probably experience something similar and i dont think that he would be able to resist. Maybe he would have the wisdom of Gandalf and reject the ring or remove its presence before it can corrupt him, but Treebeard doesnt seem to know all that much about Ring-Lore and the Politics of Middle-Earth so it could be that he wouldnt recognize the danger. Treebeard is not all knowing and has a rather limited perspective regarding Middle-Earth.

Regarding the Balrog: in my opinion he is not subservient to Sauron and probably does not accept his "Authority" in any way, shape or form. Why would he? From the Balrogs perspective Sauron is probably a Traitor and Usurper. That doesnt mean that the Balrog wouldnt be tempted by the one ring if he found it, but i dont think its likely that he would return it to Sauron.

Sam isn't an Ent.

We do not know by what Mechanism the One Ring produces the effects it produces.

Gandalf knew enough to leave the Ring alone.

As did Galadriel.

As did a lowly Man, Faramir, who was in a position to take it easily, yet said: "Not were it laying by the side of the road" would I use any device of The Enemy.

And Treebeard is a living thing who is approaching Millions of years older than even Galadriel, to say nothing of Faramir.

While he obviously has desires.... He also is very, very patient, and not at all likely to be picking up strange objects without some very pressing reason. Fangorn only picked up Merry and Pippin because he thought they were Orcs, and he had a rather long time to have gathered an opinion about Orcs, and what to do about them.

So given his outright hesitancy to act without precaution and consideration, it isn't likely he is going to pick up some alien object lying about, when he knows very well who Sauron is, even if he did not pay him much heed at that moment; given, as he says, no one, save Gandalf, or Saruman, had paid him much heed.

That does not say that he was ignorant. It only says that "I" [Treebeard] " am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side, if you understand me: nobody cares for the woods as I care for them, not even Elves nowadays."

As for being aware of Sauron and the One Ring, the latest that the Entwives could have been occupying Rhovanion of the "Lands to the East" was the middle to end of the Second Age, after which Sauron blasted the lands of Rhovanion in his War against the Elves.

And Tolkien says that in the Last Alliance all creatures fought, even on both sides (save for the Elves), including the beasts and birds. Ents happen to be among the Children of Ilúvatar. They would have been represented at the Last Alliance.

And it would be very surprising if Fangorn was not either among them, or at the very least aware of what was going on, and had discussed for days, weeks, months, or even years on end if the Ents should even have participated, and whom (the "whom" would likely be Treebeard himself, among others) should participate.

Given the length of their discussions on things being rather thorough and complete....

I'd find it rather difficult to believe that Treebeard/Fangorn (and the rest of the Ents) would not be rather keenly aware of the Greatest living Tree-slayer in Middle-earth of the Second and Third Ages, as well as the fact that he dabbled more than a little bit in magic rings.

So I continue to doubt that Treebeard would have anything to do with it.

The One Ring is not omnipotent, only very dangerous. If wary men have the power to reject it, then so too would the most wary, guarded, and cautious conscious being in all of Middle-earth likely have the power to reject it.

And it isn't likely that Fangorn is going to worry about picking up jewelry of any type, magical or no. He doesn't even seem to wear clothes.

MB

[denethorthefirst]

We are not in disagreement. No matter how isolationist Treebeard has become by the end of the third age, i think it would be very strange if he wouldnt know about Mordor, Gondor, etc., the political "Big Picture" so to speak. I also think its likely that he fought in the War of the last Alliance. If the Ring was presented to him or he came across it, he would probably reject it at first, even if he didnt know about its origin ... but: if the Ring remained in Fangorn, if for example Treebeard agreed to watch over it for a while, or if an Orc from Sarumans Gang captured the Ring from Frodo, escaped to Fangorn and got killed by an Ent, than i think its very likely that the Ring would, eventually, corrupt Treebeard over time and enslave him, it is only a matter of time.