Prince Imrahil and his mortality

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

It's probably worth pointing out that when Legolas speaks to Imrahil, he says "'It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water."

Imrahil replies "So it is said in the lore of my land [...] yet never has one of the fair folk been seen there for years beyond count."

So regardless of what actually happened, Legolas himself seems to think it's the Mithrellas option. He appears to perceive a trace of "the people of Nimrodel" in Imrahil. Of course he might have just been guessing.

Quite right.

To assume that the line of Dol Amroth did not have elvish blood in its origins is to assume that Legolas was entirely mistaken in his analysis of Imrahil. I don't believe this is a sustainable notion. Elves knew elvishness when they saw it. The only time I can think of when an elf was (briefly) mistaken on this point was when Voronwë first met Tuor and momentarily thought he was an elf...but realized his mistake almost immediately.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The only time I can think of when an elf was (briefly) mistaken on this point was when Voronwë first met Tuor and momentarily thought he was an elf...but realized his mistake almost immediately.

This brief mistake can be accounted for by the fact that the elf in question had recently survived a shipwreck which had drowned all his crewmates.

[AndyC]

I think that Tolkien's "only three unions" really referred to the Pereldar, those who were descended from Edain and Eldar; Mithrellas, as a Silvan Elf, would not have been counted as Eldar.

Or, at least, it's arguable.

Tolkien used the Pereldar wording through much of his drafts, so it's certainly possible that this concept was what (possibly erroneously) survived into print.

On the immortality question - in The Lost Road, as of just before writing The Lord of the Rings, in the final full narrative of Earendil's voyage, the Valar debated what was to be done with him. His Elven blood was raised, but Mandos said something along the lines of "Any mortal blood makes one mortal" (I don't have the books with me). And Manwe sought the advice of Iluvatar and for this case only was given the authority to issue a choice to Earendil and his immediate family. That the Choice was passed to Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen makes things a bit more complicated, but given that the implication from Tolkien's worldview was that accepting the Gift of Death was the "right" choice, it could be argued that this was so that their parents could not withhold the Gift of Eru from them. And once the "right" choice was made, no further choice need be given.

Again, though, much is up to personal interpretation, but that particular interpretation seems coherent to me and forms my personal interpretation.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Quite right.

To assume that the line of Dol Amroth did not have elvish blood in its origins is to assume that Legolas was entirely mistaken in his analysis of Imrahil. I don't believe this is a sustainable notion. Elves knew elvishness when they saw it. The only time I can think of when an elf was (briefly) mistaken on this point was when Voronwë first met Tuor and momentarily thought he was an elf...but realized his mistake almost immediately.

We can also look at this from a story-external point of view: if Imrahil didn't, in fact, have Elvish ancestry, why include that dialogue at all?

[Galin]

Maybe to give Imrahil a singular nobility among those who arrived to aid Minas Tirith, and a fairness even bordering on Elvishness, whether or not Legolas was correct?

I agree it seems odd to think that Legolas might be wrong, but for example when Turin reached full manhood he was (The Children of Hurin): "in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: tall, dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken at first meeting for one from the great houses of the Noldor."

Granted it says "at first meeting" here, but on the other hand we don't know what the eventual give away might be with Turin, who never claimed to be an Elf. When Tuor first enters Gondolin his eyes give away his kin, but earlier in the Narn Turin is described as bright-eyed as well, and I note he is compared to the Noldor here, whose eyes (at least early in their Exile anyway) were so notable that the Sindar called them Lechind "Flame-eyed" (Quendi And Eldar, War of the Jools).

Also Morwen was dark-haired and tall (The Children of Hurin) "and for the light of her glance and the beauty of her face men called her Eledhwen, the elven-fair..."

Legolas appears to have just met Imrahil when he notes the story ("at first meeting"), and even Imrahil stamps that this is the lore of his land, and I don't think (if I recall correctly), that Tolkien ever refers to this matter outside of the context of a legend, suggesting variant traditions concerning who the Elf maid was, if "improbably" Nimrodel herself.

Another thing is that after Mithrellas (of the Silvan race) bore a son and daughter, at some point she "slipped away by night and he saw her no more"... seems a bit odd for a mother to do this, and we are given no reason for the disappearance. But this does, somewhat conveniently in a way, take early care of the living proof of Elvish blood in the line, noting too that Mithrellas would not die as a mortal.

Sounds a bit like a good way to explain that the (Unfinished Tales): "... house and kin of the Lord of Dol Amroth was noble by blood as they were fair in face and mind."

So again, while I agree it's hard to think Legolas could be wrong about this, I'm not sure I should be certain he was right.

Or something else!

Edit: by the way, Happy Birthday Nerwen (I just noticed)

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Galin

So again, while I agree it's hard to think Legolas could be wrong about this, I'm not sure I should be certain he was right.

On balance, I think the evidence suggests that he probably was.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

We can also look at this from a story-external point of view: if Imrahil didn't, in fact, have Elvish ancestry, why include that dialogue at all?

Well if Imrahil was a close relation of Elendil then he would have Elvish ancestry, but through Elros.

1.Turin, Tuor and even Aragorn are all described at times as looking more like Elf Lords than men. I am sure if Legolas had met either Turin or Tuor he might mistakenly assume they had Elvish blood. If they could be mistaken for full Elves, then I it's even more likely Elves, had Dior not been the only exception at the time, would assume the same for them.

2.Mithrellas actions seem contrary to most Elves, who were very close to their childen. Apart from Miriel I can't think of any other example of Elves abandoning their children.

3.Thirdly as Gwindor said elves and men have only married to result in some great purpose and if we are speaking strictly that has only happened twice in recorded history. Beren/Luthien and Tuor/Idris. It's not the sort of thing fate (Eru) permits except for some great reason.

4. As previously stated Elvish blood alone would not be enough for the Princes to be the second greatest nobles in Gondor. Even in the case of Elrond and Elros they were the rightful chiefs of the House of Hador, the House of Beor and possibly the House of Haleth too.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

There was no Choice: that applied only to Earendil, Elwing and their descendants, not to all offspring of Elves and Men. Otherwise, a "one drop" rule applied.


While the text of the War of Wrath chapter dated only from 1937, and was itself just a revision of the end of QN, it is the case that Tolkien had it included in the LQII amanuensis typescript ca 1958, and, more significantly, emended it throughout to take name changes etc into account (e.g. Eonwe for Fionwe), so it appear that this text still had at least some validity after the Lord Of the Rings was published.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

1.Turin, Tuor and even Aragorn are all described at times as looking more like Elf Lords than men. I am sure if Legolas had met either Turin or Tuor he might mistakenly assume they had Elvish blood. If they could be mistaken for full Elves, then I it's even more likely Elves, had Dior not been the only exception at the time, would assume the same for them.

But you see he had already met Aragorn without being all OMG U R TOTES A ELF!!!111!! That suggests a greater significance to me.

Anyway, I'm inclined to think WCH may have the right of here:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

There was no Choice: that applied only to Earendil, Elwing and their descendants, not to all offspring of Elves and Men. Otherwise, a "one drop" rule applied.

This would make it irrelevant whether the Mithrellas story is meant to be true or just a family legend.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But you see he had already met Aragorn without being all OMG U R TOTES A ELF!!!111!! That suggests a greater significance to me.

He had met Aragorn knowing his history and probably when Aragorn was worn by travels. We are told that when Aragorn and Arwen were betrothed

But Aragorn was grown to full stature of body and mind, and Galadriel bade him cast aside his wayworn raiment, and she clothed him in silver and white, with a cloak of elven-grey and a bright gem on his brow. Then more than any king of Men he appeared, and seemed rather an Elf-lord from the Isles of the West. And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold,1 her choice was made and her doom appointed.

By that description Aragorn could easily be mistaken for an Elf.

Imrahil's description and appearance is to give the reader an indication of how great Gondor was and still is. He is after all the highest noble in the country and virtually an independent ruler.

Anyway, I'm inclined to think WCH may have the right of here:

This would make it irrelevant whether the Mithrellas story is meant to be true or just a family legend.

I was not discussing Mithrellas, but the case of Dior and his sons. Mithrellas of course would not have a choice, because the decision had already been made. Dior on the other hand died before a decision had been made and I suspect he may have been given a choice or even assumed to be an elf considering his history.

To further drive home the point. Look at the description of Turin, who didn't even have a drop of Elvish blood.

'But you are kingly,' said she, 'even as the lords of the people of Fingolfin; I would I had
a brother so valiant. And I do not think that Agarwaen is your name, nor is it fit for you,
Adanedhel. I call you Thurin, the Secret.'

But Turin was young, and only now reached his full manhood; and he was in truth the son of Morwen Eledhwen to look upon: tall, dark-haired and pale-skinned, with grey eyes, and his face more beautiful than any other among mortal men, in the Elder Days. His speech and bearing were those of the ancient kingdom of Doriath, and even among the Elves he might be taken at first meeting for one from the great houses of the Noldor.

If someone with no Elvish blood could be mistaken for a Noldor Lord straight from seeing the Trees, then I don't see why not so with Imrahil when the same is said of Aragorn.

[Nerwen]

cellurdur, I'd address your points and all that, but... there's this:

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I was not discussing Mithrellas, but the case of Dior and his sons. Mithrellas of course would not have a choice, because the decision had already been made. Dior on the other hand died before a decision had been made and I suspect he may have been given a choice or even assumed to be an elf considering his history.

This entire thread has been about Mithrellas and the implications of Imrahil's possible descent from her. Were you by any chance meaning to post in the Dior thread?

And Galin, belated thanks for the birthday wishes!