Let's all go to Valinor! - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

01-25-2003, 06:18 PM

I know that Gandalf and Frodo go to Valinor and I believe Sam, Gimli, and Legolas eventually do, so why didn't Merry, Pippin, and Aragorn? And Arwen for that matter? Thank you.

Gorwingel · 01-25-2003, 06:43 PM

Frodo, Sam, and Bilbo were ringbearers (Sam though for a short time)
Gandalf was a ringbearer too, though of a lesser ring.
Legolas asked, if I recall correctly, Galadriel, because Gimli was a friend of the elves, if he could come to the havens too.
Aragorn was king, so he had to stay with his people
Arwen choose not to go to the havens
and Merry and Pippin were just simple hobbits with no reason to go.
I could be wrong about some of my reasons, but I think I am pretty close.

Iarwain · 01-25-2003, 07:01 PM

All good, except for one thing.

Legolas and Gimli did not go to the havens. Rather, they built a ship together and sailed off to an unknown end.

Tar-Palantir · 01-25-2003, 07:20 PM

I always assumed that 'sailed over Sea' meant to the undying lands. Where else would they go? Certainly not seeking adventure what with Gimli being quite old at the time. I guess we get to imagine our own ending for Gimli and Legolas. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Iarwain · 01-25-2003, 09:37 PM

Tar-Palantir, they sail over the sea, but are they accepted into Valinor? I believe that's the question to ask.

01-25-2003, 10:51 PM

Although Gandalf bore the Ring of Fire, he sailed back to Valinor because his quest was complete with the destruction of Sauron.

Gorwingel · 01-26-2003, 02:49 AM

Yes, I was going to say that Gandalf was the only one of the Istari to complete the quest that he was sent to Middle Earth for.

Additionally I always thought that Gimli got into the havens, (because of his love of
Galadriel, and how he and Legolas were friends when there kindreds had been very hostle to eachother) I guess I will have to go back and check in the book

01-26-2003, 10:20 AM

Thanks for all the responses. Seems I opened a can of Middle-Earth worms.I don't know that I'd call Merry and Pippin "simple" hobbits though!

Iarwain · 01-29-2003, 04:58 PM

Just like to clarify something. The Grey Havens are on the Gulf of Lhun. Merry and Pippin did, in fact, reach the havens in the books. Valinor, however is a completely different story. As Merry and Pip were mortal and had no reason for going to valinor, (not the Havens) they could not. Plus, the Valar would not have allowed them to enter. I strongly suggest that all of you read the Silmarillion. With that knowledge, you would better understand the Geography of Middle-Earth, and its boundaries.

Iarwain

Yavanna Kementari · 01-29-2003, 07:02 PM

Merry and Pippin are not just hobbits,infact Pippin was a Knight of Gondor and King Elessar did not release his servitude. Merry also swore an oath of service to Theoden King but was release by Theodens death.

And I believe,Iarwain, that were Merry and Pippin to reach the Undying lands I would welcome them into Valinor and thank them for Enjoying the friendship of the kelvar
that I hold dear. Not all answers can be found in a book. The passage to The Undying lands was hidden and I believe that those who brave the wrath and joy of Osse and are successful on their passage have a good sporting chance. Though only 2 or 3 people have ever done it.(IMHO) -(~<~>Yavanna

[ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: Yavanna Kementari ]

Iarwain · 01-29-2003, 07:28 PM

Very clever, Yavanna, but rules are rules, and not to be broken. The men of Numenor yearned oh so much for the Undying lands, but were not allowed. The fact that Merry and pippin were knight and guard does not change their mortality any more than if Pippin were the inkeeper of the Golden Perch, and Merry the Sackville-Bagginses Real Estate Agent. I think that unless you are truly psychotic and claim to have connections with little Mr. Tolkien who lives in your ear, books are pretty much the only way to learn about Middle-Earth as a whole. I also don't believe that you would publicly stand up to a ruling by the Valar that Merry and Pippin didn't belong in Valinor because it was against the will of Eru.

Chuckling,
Iarwain

[ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

01-25-2003, 06:18 PM	#1
Malva Banks Guest Posts: n/a	Let's all go to Valinor! I know that Gandalf and Frodo go to Valinor and I believe Sam, Gimli, and Legolas eventually do, so why didn't Merry, Pippin, and Aragorn? And Arwen for that matter? Thank you.

01-25-2003, 06:43 PM	#2
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	Frodo, Sam, and Bilbo were ringbearers (Sam though for a short time) Gandalf was a ringbearer too, though of a lesser ring. Legolas asked, if I recall correctly, Galadriel, because Gimli was a friend of the elves, if he could come to the havens too. Aragorn was king, so he had to stay with his people Arwen choose not to go to the havens and Merry and Pippin were just simple hobbits with no reason to go. I could be wrong about some of my reasons, but I think I am pretty close. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

01-25-2003, 07:01 PM	#3
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	All good, except for one thing. Legolas and Gimli did not go to the havens. Rather, they built a ship together and sailed off to an unknown end. __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

01-25-2003, 07:20 PM	#4
Tar-Palantir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: napa valley, ca Posts: 496	I always assumed that 'sailed over Sea' meant to the undying lands. Where else would they go? Certainly not seeking adventure what with Gimli being quite old at the time. I guess we get to imagine our own ending for Gimli and Legolas. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ History shows again and again How nature points up the folly of men Go, go, Godzilla!

01-25-2003, 09:37 PM	#5
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Tar-Palantir, they sail over the sea, but are they accepted into Valinor? I believe that's the question to ask. __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

01-25-2003, 10:51 PM	#6
Bob Hands Guest Posts: n/a	Although Gandalf bore the Ring of Fire, he sailed back to Valinor because his quest was complete with the destruction of Sauron.

01-26-2003, 02:49 AM	#7
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	Yes, I was going to say that Gandalf was the only one of the Istari to complete the quest that he was sent to Middle Earth for. Additionally I always thought that Gimli got into the havens, (because of his love of Galadriel, and how he and Legolas were friends when there kindreds had been very hostle to eachother) I guess I will have to go back and check in the book __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

01-26-2003, 10:20 AM	#8
Malva Banks Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks for all the responses. Seems I opened a can of Middle-Earth worms.I don't know that I'd call Merry and Pippin "simple" hobbits though!

01-29-2003, 04:58 PM	#9
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Just like to clarify something. The Grey Havens are on the Gulf of Lhun. Merry and Pippin did, in fact, reach the havens in the books. Valinor, however is a completely different story. As Merry and Pip were mortal and had no reason for going to valinor, (not the Havens) they could not. Plus, the Valar would not have allowed them to enter. I strongly suggest that all of you read the Silmarillion. With that knowledge, you would better understand the Geography of Middle-Earth, and its boundaries. Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

01-29-2003, 07:02 PM	#10
Yavanna Kementari Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 97	Merry and Pippin are not just hobbits,infact Pippin was a Knight of Gondor and King Elessar did not release his servitude. Merry also swore an oath of service to Theoden King but was release by Theodens death. And I believe,Iarwain, that were Merry and Pippin to reach the Undying lands I would welcome them into Valinor and thank them for Enjoying the friendship of the kelvar that I hold dear. Not all answers can be found in a book. The passage to The Undying lands was hidden and I believe that those who brave the wrath and joy of Osse and are successful on their passage have a good sporting chance. Though only 2 or 3 people have ever done it.(IMHO) -(~<~>Yavanna [ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: Yavanna Kementari ] __________________ "Nonetheless they will have need of wood." Aulë speaking to Yavanna of Dwarves :P to you Aulë

01-29-2003, 07:28 PM	#11
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Very clever, Yavanna, but rules are rules, and not to be broken. The men of Numenor yearned oh so much for the Undying lands, but were not allowed. The fact that Merry and pippin were knight and guard does not change their mortality any more than if Pippin were the inkeeper of the Golden Perch, and Merry the Sackville-Bagginses Real Estate Agent. I think that unless you are truly psychotic and claim to have connections with little Mr. Tolkien who lives in your ear, books are pretty much the only way to learn about Middle-Earth as a whole. I also don't believe that you would publicly stand up to a ruling by the Valar that Merry and Pippin didn't belong in Valinor because it was against the will of Eru. Chuckling, Iarwain [ January 29, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ] __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"