The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-06-2015, 09:03 AM   #1
Faramir Jones
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Faramir Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
Faramir Jones is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Faramir Jones is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Leaf A look at LotR and AoTB

I was looking again at The Lord of the Rings, particularly the episode 'A Conspiracy Unmasked' and at The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, particularly the Preface and the first poem.

In that chapter of LotR, Merry called Farmer Maggot 'a shrewd fellow', saying, 'I've heard that he used to go into the Old Forest at one time'. (From later remarks by Tom Bombadil about Maggot this information appears to be correct.)

When Frodo decided to go through the Old Forest, Merry said, 'It sounds very desperate, but I believe Frodo is right. It is the only way of getting off without being followed at once. With luck we might get a considerable start'. (My italics)

In talking about the Old Forest, Merry said,

The Brandybucks go in - occasionally when the fit takes them. We have a private entrance. Frodo went in once, long ago. I have been in several times; Usually in daylight, of course, when the trees are sleepy and fairly quiet.

He then called the Forest 'queer'. Everything there is 'much more alive, more aware of what is going on' than in the Shire. The trees 'do not like strangers. They watch you'.

Usually this is all that happens in daylight. At night, 'things can be most alarming, or so I am told'. (My italics) He has, once or twice, been there after dark and near the hedge.

Merry finished by saying that there were 'various queer things' in the forest, or so he was told. But 'I have never seen any of them'. He admitted that 'something makes paths' there.

In terms of the title poem in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, Tolkien in the Preface says that it and the second poem in the collection, 'Bombadil Goes Boating', 'evidently come from the Buckland'. Both 'show that the Bucklanders knew Bombadil'. That name, added on to all his other ones, was 'Bucklandish in form'; but they had 'as little understanding of his powers', as the Shire-folk had of Gandalf's. The first poem is 'made up of various hobbit-versions of legends concerning Bombadil'.

From what we are given here, while some hobbits have gone into the Forest, it's usually been during the daytime, keeping an eye on the trees. However, most haven't gone in that far, owing to the lack of information about a willow tree and about what William called a 'singing nutbar'. While something is known about Bombadil, there's not enough information to coherently say who he is, otherwise Merry would have said more.

Any hobbits who knew more as a result of going far into the Forest, such as Maggot, weren't telling; so more information, and the second poem, had to wait for the account of the four hobbits' stay with Bombadil being known in the Red Book.
Faramir Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2015, 06:59 PM   #2
William Cloud Hicklin
Loremaster of Annúminas
 
William Cloud Hicklin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.William Cloud Hicklin is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
It's also worth observing that the hobbits' planned route wouldn't have taken them through the heart of the Forest; their intention was to cut across its northwest corner and come out on the Road some miles from the Bridge..... not down to the Withywindle and then out on the eastern, Barrow-downs side.
__________________
The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.
William Cloud Hicklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2015, 09:09 PM   #3
Ivriniel
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Ivriniel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 430
Ivriniel has just left Hobbiton.
Personally, I never found Bombadil moving or compelling as I found the famous Noldor such as Celebrimbor. Strangely distancing of the core mythology is how he leaves a footprint upon me.

An interpretation we've seen about him is Deus Ex Machina, which cheapens the magic when getting as mechanical and concrete about it as that.
Ivriniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2015, 07:46 AM   #4
Faramir Jones
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Faramir Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Lonely Isle
Posts: 706
Faramir Jones is a guest at the Prancing Pony.Faramir Jones is a guest at the Prancing Pony.
Leaf How far through the Forest?

Quote:
Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
It's also worth observing that the hobbits' planned route wouldn't have taken them through the heart of the Forest; their intention was to cut across its northwest corner and come out on the Road some miles from the Bridge..... not down to the Withywindle and then out on the eastern, Barrow-downs side.
I'd agree with you here, William. Once Frodo spoke about his plan, Merry, who had a lot of local knowledge, supported it as worth the risk.
Faramir Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2015, 10:46 AM   #5
skip spence
shadow of a doubt
 
skip spence's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Back on the streets
Posts: 1,125
skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.skip spence is battling Black Riders on Weathertop.
I just reread this chapter and I perceive Tom like a formidable rural Irishman. Very self-assured but he doesn't take much too seriously. If there were pubs around I'd suspect he'd be there quite a lot, telling tales, singing and joking with the locals. He'd avoid political discussions and drink quite a lot but would never lose that sharpness of mind or body even after plenty of pints. Certainly a good fellow who'd help out friend at any time but not one to save the world, he'd be content to stay in his little country pub and the little world that surrounds it.

Edit. Btw the Old Forest chapter, though quite unattached and different to the rest of the novel, is probably where the best writing in LotR is found. Tolkien does a great job in describing the scenes, building up the atmosphere and conveying the emotional roller-coaster the hobbits are experiencing.
__________________
"You can always come back, but you can't come back all the way" ~ Bob Dylan

Last edited by skip spence; 11-25-2015 at 10:53 AM.
skip spence is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2017, 01:49 PM   #6
Aaron
Haunting Spirit
 
Aaron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: England
Posts: 96
Aaron has just left Hobbiton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faramir Jones View Post
He then called the Forest 'queer'. Everything there is 'much more alive, more aware of what is going on' than in the Shire. The trees 'do not like strangers. They watch you'.
That right there is a big part of why I am so skeptical of Tom's nature. I mean, isn't the Old Forest his land? He has some degree of mastery over it, enough so that his incantations can lull the trees to sleep.
But as master of the Forest, why are the trees so bitter and angry, when Tom is so happy and carefree? I think that really helped shape my own perceptions of the character, as those chapters in the Forest and the Barrow Downs held an overwhelming sense of unease, and Tom only exacerbated that feeling because of how disarmingly jovial he was.
__________________
Remember, stranger, passing by: As you are now, so once was I. As I am now, so you shall be. Prepare thyself to follow me.
Aaron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2017, 03:15 PM   #7
Inziladun
Gruesome Spectre
 
Inziladun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.Inziladun is a guest of Galadriel in Lothlórien.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
I mean, isn't the Old Forest his land? He has some degree of mastery over it, enough so that his incantations can lull the trees to sleep.
Well, the Forest doesn't 'belong' to Bombadil. Goldberry seems distressed at the notion.
He is 'master', but of himself. And as he tells the hobbits, explaining his saving them from the Willow, he had an 'errand that [the Willow] dared not hinder.' The ability to affect the trees did not have to equal any possession of the Forest. As a matter of fact, we don't have any evidence he ever did exercise any power over the trees, apart from saving Frodo. Tom told Frodo that event was even 'no plan of his'. He saw himself as being in the right place at the right time, serving some other purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
But as master of the Forest, why are the trees so bitter and angry, when Tom is so happy and carefree?
Gandalf explained to the Council of Elrond that Bombadil was 'withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set (my emphasis)". It wasn't that Tom had laid any claim on the Forest; just that he had chosen it as his dwelling place. The sentient trees apparently recognized his true nature, and responded appropriately.
__________________
Music alone proves the existence of God.
Inziladun is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:43 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.