*A project ~~~~Revising the Fall of Gondolin*

[Aiwendil]

I suppose I'm just not convinced, even if the counsel of war includes the abandonment of Gondolin, that it necessarily includes the specific instructions to go down to Sirion's mouths. Moreover, I'm still not really convinced that the counsel of war necessarily involves the abandonment of Gondolin.

Originally Posted by Findegil

My problem with your outline, Aiwendil, is exactly that Tuor does provide Turgon with an alternative, if he would not wage that war he is advocating in Ulmo's name. I think the difference is bit the opposit of Yoda saying that you should not try, you should do it.

I mean, that if we press the counsel to go war and to leave Gondolin together in on speach of Tuor, then we should avoid presenting them as alternatives. I would agree to an 'at least' but not an 'if ... then'.

Let me try to add some logic to my earlier outline to show how I think it makes sense.

- Tuor bids Turgon prepare for a war against Morgoth, describes the means of preparing (alliances with the Feanorians and with men of the east, probable succour from the Valar), and describes the consequences of such a war (a terrible battle but a chance for real victory). It is not explicitly said, at this point, whether such a war would involve abandoning Gondolin, but perhaps this is understood to be implied.
- Tuor further says that if Turgon refuses to go to war, then he should (still) abandon Gondolin and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.
- Idril and Turgon's wise councillors speak in favour of this (the latter) advice.
- Turgon refuses both the first counsel and the second counsel.

So if you want to interpret it in such a way that the counsel of war involves abandoning Gondolin, then Ulmo is saying (through Tuor): "Even if you refuse to do the war thing, you should still at least do the part where you abandon your city and seek refuge at the mouths of Sirion.