Silmarillion - Chapter 22 - Of the Ruin of Doriath - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 07-16-2015, 09:58 AM

While it's true that the SoF, especially Maedhros, should have acted more diplomatically, it's another matter whether they could. They were under the Doom of Mandos, most especially in any matter concerning the Silmarils and the Oath: "On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East...Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them;" and I think those were drivers of irrational conduct, an independent dark psychological force somewhat reminiscent of the effect of the One Ring.

(It's also likely the case that, although M&M weren't as crude as Caranthir, privately they too thought of Thingol as a "dark Elf in his caves;" the thought of such an inferior possessing a Silmaril was intolerable to them.)

Faramir Jones · 07-20-2015, 05:35 AM

Thanks for you contribution, William, and apologies for not replying sooner.

In terms of what you said:

While it's true that the SoF, especially Maedhros, should have acted more diplomatically, it's another matter whether they could. They were under the Doom of Mandos, most especially in any matter concerning the Silmarils and the Oath: "On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East...Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them;" and I think those were drivers of irrational conduct, an independent dark psychological force somewhat reminiscent of the effect of the One Ring.

(It's also likely the case that, although M&M weren't as crude as Caranthir, privately they too thought of Thingol as a "dark Elf in his caves;" the thought of such an inferior possessing a Silmaril was intolerable to them.)

I think they could have acted more diplomatically; because they, unlike humans who eventually die of old age, have plenty of time to spare. This can be seen when they did not attack Morgoth for centuries, despite the Oath being in force. All seven appeared to then have no problem letting it slumber for a time.

If they were prepared to be patient with their greatest enemy, who killed their father, could they not be at least equally patient with a fellow Elf?

Why not at least try to get the Silmaril back by diplomatic means? At least it would give some public justification for any future use of force.

Sadly, you're probably right, in terms of what many of the SoF privately thought about Thingol. But they could have at least been publicly diplomatic towards him, particularly after the scandal of two of them kidnapping his daughter.

William Cloud Hicklin · 08-27-2015, 07:41 PM

Well, assaulting Angband was impossible, whereas Doriath was do-able. And the SoF did wage constant war on Morgoth after all.

Faramir Jones · 09-03-2015, 01:41 AM

I wouldn't say that assaulting Angband was impossible, just very, very, very difficult and costly.

There's also the issue of attacking Doriath after the Fifth Battle, which is a wonderful way of assisting Morgoth.

07-16-2015, 09:58 AM	#1
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	While it's true that the SoF, especially Maedhros, should have acted more diplomatically, it's another matter whether they could. They were under the Doom of Mandos, most especially in any matter concerning the Silmarils and the Oath: "On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East...Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them;" and I think those were drivers of irrational conduct, an independent dark psychological force somewhat reminiscent of the effect of the One Ring. (It's also likely the case that, although M&M weren't as crude as Caranthir, privately they too thought of Thingol as a "dark Elf in his caves;" the thought of such an inferior possessing a Silmaril was intolerable to them.) __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

07-20-2015, 05:35 AM	#2
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	Why not at least try? Thanks for you contribution, William, and apologies for not replying sooner. In terms of what you said: While it's true that the SoF, especially Maedhros, should have acted more diplomatically, it's another matter whether they could. They were under the Doom of Mandos, most especially in any matter concerning the Silmarils and the Oath: "On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East...Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them;" and I think those were drivers of irrational conduct, an independent dark psychological force somewhat reminiscent of the effect of the One Ring. (It's also likely the case that, although M&M weren't as crude as Caranthir, privately they too thought of Thingol as a "dark Elf in his caves;" the thought of such an inferior possessing a Silmaril was intolerable to them.) I think they could have acted more diplomatically; because they, unlike humans who eventually die of old age, have plenty of time to spare. This can be seen when they did not attack Morgoth for centuries, despite the Oath being in force. All seven appeared to then have no problem letting it slumber for a time. If they were prepared to be patient with their greatest enemy, who killed their father, could they not be at least equally patient with a fellow Elf? Why not at least try to get the Silmaril back by diplomatic means? At least it would give some public justification for any future use of force. Sadly, you're probably right, in terms of what many of the SoF privately thought about Thingol. But they could have at least been publicly diplomatic towards him, particularly after the scandal of two of them kidnapping his daughter. Last edited by Faramir Jones; 09-29-2016 at 02:31 AM.

08-27-2015, 07:41 PM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	Well, assaulting Angband was impossible, whereas Doriath was do-able. And the SoF did wage constant war on Morgoth after all. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

09-03-2015, 01:41 AM	#4
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	Very, very, very difficult and costly I wouldn't say that assaulting Angband was impossible, just very, very, very difficult and costly. There's also the issue of attacking Doriath after the Fifth Battle, which is a wonderful way of assisting Morgoth.