Name Changes?

[Findegil]

So in the end we settle down on Maedros and Maglor.

I will work that back into our texts.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Glad we're agreed. If I get a chance tomorrow I'll go through and update the list of names we're using in the 'General Changes in TftE' thread.

[Aiwendil]

Here's a revised list of general changes, arranged alphabetically. For ease of reading, I've removed the quotes from the discussions about those changes, instead supplying links to the relevant threads. One thing I realized as I was doing this is that we never actually came to a decision about the name 'Gwarestrin'.

{Amon Gwareth}[Amon Gwared] per LQ2 (HoMe XI)

{Amras}[Amros] per Shibboleth and Ros. Discussed in Name Changes?

{Angamandi}[Angband] per Q30.

{Artanaro}[Ereinion] per the ‘Shibboleth’. Discussed in this thread.

{Artanor}[Doriath] per Q30.

{Auredhir}[Eluréd and Elurín] per QS77

{Avranc}[Daruin] per WH note 55.

{Bad Uthwen}[Way of Escape], decided in Bad Uthwen vote after discussion here

Battle of Sudden {Fire}[Flame] per QS77

{Bansil}[Belthil] per QS77

{Belthil}[Silpion] when it refers to the tree in Valinor, per QS77.

{Bëor}[Bregor] when referring to the Father of Barahir per HoME XI

{Bladorion}[Ard-galen] per HoME XI

{Bronweg}[Voronwë] per QS77and late 'Tuor'

{Celegorn}[Celegorm] per QS77

{Celon}[Limhir] per 'Of Maeglin'

{Côr} [Túna] or [Tirion] per QS77. In BoLT Kor corresponds to both the later Tirion and Túna, being the name of both the City and the hill on which it stands. It should be changed to 'Tirion' when it refers to the city and 'Tuna' when it refers to the hill.


{Cranthir}[Caranthir]

{Cranthor}[Caranthir] per QS77

{Crisaegrim}[Crissaegrim] per QS77

{Cristhorn}[Cirith Thoronath] per QS77

{Cûm an-Idrisaith}[Cûm-nan-Arasaith] (Mound of Avarice) per Q30. This may need linguistic revision.

Dagor {Vreged-sir}[Bragollach] per QS77

{Dairon}[Daeron] per QS77

{Damrod}[Amrod] per QS77.

{Díriel}[Amros] per Shibboleth and Ros

{Dorlas}[Darlas] per WH note 55.

{Dorlomin}[Dor-Lómin] for consistency with UT and QS77

{Dor-na-Fauglith}[Dor-nu-Fauglith] per QS77

{dragon-helm}[Dragon-helm] just for consistency.

{dwarfen}[dwarven] per Tolkiens general use of the old plural when refering to Dwarves.

{Eärendel}[Eärendil] per QS77and LR.

{Egnor}[Aegnor] per QS77 (except where it refers to Beren's father)

{Egnor}[Barahir] per QS77 when it refers to Beren’s father.

{Elfinesse}[Elvenesse] per Tolkien's general change of Elfin to Elven from earlier to later writings.

{Erchamion}[Erchamon] per ‘Eldarin Hands, Fingers, and Numerals’. Decided in this thread.

Ereinion: No change.

{Ermabwed}[Erchamon] per ‘Eldarin Hands, Fingers, and Numerals’.

{Finellach}[Ereinion] per the ‘Shibboleth’. Discussed in this thread.

{Finrod}[Finarfin] per QS77 when it refers to Felagund's father.

{Flinding go-Fuilin}[Gwindor, Guilin’s son] this seems to be covered by the two entries 'Flinding' and 'Fuilin' but since in alliterative verse Flinding and Fuilin are both in the alliteration it is here surely necessary to change the alliteration.

{Flinding}[Gwindor] per QS77 but this change does only occur in the verse and Flinding is often used in the alliteration. Thus each line needs some special solution.

{Fuilin}[Guilin] per QS77 but this change does only occur in the verse and Fuilin is often used in the alliteration. Thus each line needs some special solution.

{Galion}[Galdor] per HoME XI

{Galweg}[Orodreth] per QS77.

{Gar Ainion}[Place of the Ainur], decided here

{Gar Thurian}[Gar Thoren] per 'Etymologies': under 3AR-, section GARAT-. Decided here

{Gelion} and {River Gelion} [Duin Daer] per 'Of Maeglin'.

{Gelmir}[Faramir] when referring to the companion of Arminas, per Narn plot synopses. Discussed in this thread.

{Glingal}[Laurelin] when it refers to the tree in Valinor per QS77

{Glingol}[Glingal] per QS77.

{Glommweaver}[Ungoliant] and {Ungoliantë}[Ungoliant] per QS77

{Glorund}[Glaurung] per Wanderings of Húrin.

{Gnome}[Elf] or [Noldo] and {Gnomes}[Elves] or [Noldor]. “Gnomes” was dropped by Tolkien in LR and later writings, often replaced by Noldor. It would be better artistically to retain the original variation Gnome/Gnomes and Noldo/Noldli which can be best done by replacing Gnome/Gnomes by Elf/Elves except where a general reference to Elves would not fit, as in “the Gnomes were exiles at heart, haunted with a desire for their ancient home that faded not.” Then use Noldor.

{Gochressiel} [Crissaegrim] per QS77

{Gondothlim}[Gondolindrim] per QS77

{Gondothlimbar}[Gondothrimbar] per 'Etymologies'; under GOND-. Discussed here

{Gods}[Valar] Tolkien almost entirely drops "Gods" as a English translation in later writings.

{Gorthu}[Sauron] or [Gorthaur] per LR.

{Gumlin}[Galdor] per HoME XI

Gwarestrin:

{Gwendelin} [Melian] per QS77.

{Gwenniel}[Melian] per Q30.

{Gyrth-I-Guinar}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar] per QS77

{Haladin}[Halethrim] when referring to the general populace of Haleth’s people, per ‘The Wanderings of Hurin’.

{Haleth}[Halmir] when it refers to Haleth the Hunter per LQ

{Haud-in-Nengin}[Haudh-en-Nirnaeth] per QS77

{Hisilómë}[Hithlum] per S.

{House of the Swan}[House of Hador] when it refers to Tuor’s ancestry. The sign of Annael remains the Swan.

{Hundar}[Haldir] per LQ when it refers to Halmir's son.

{Hundor}[Haldir] per LQ.

{i•Guilwarthon}[Dor Firn-i-Guinar] per QS77.

{Ing}[Ingwë] per QS77

{Inglor}[Finrod] or [Felagund] per LR

{Inwe}[Ingwë] per QS77

{Indrafangs}[dwarves of Belegost] when not referring to the dwarves of Moria per QS77

{Isfin}[Aredhel] per QS77

{Karkaras} (Knife-fang)}[Carcharoth ('the Red Maw')] per QS77.

{Kôr} [Túna] or [Tirion] per QS77. In BoLT Kor corresponds to both the later Tirion and Túna, being the name of both the City and the hill on which it stands. It should be changed to 'Tirion' when it refers to the city and 'Tuna' when it refers to the hill.

{Lalaith}[Lalaeth] per genealogical tables associated with LQ2. Discussed in this thread.

{Legolas Greenleaf}[Laegolas], discussed here and decided here.

{Lhandroval}[Landroval] per LR

{Lothengriol}[Loth-a-ladwen] per 'The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin' (in 'Poems Early Abandoned, HoMe III).

{Lothlim}[Lothrim] This latter is the probable correct Sindarin form.

Maglor: No change. Discussed in this thread.

{Mahtan}[Sarmo] per Shibboleth, discussed in Name Changes?[/url]

{Maidros} [Maedros] per the ‘Shibboleth’. Discussed in this thread.

{Malkarauki}[Valaraukar] per Valaquenta published with QS77.

{Mavwin}[Morwen] per QS77.

{Meglin}[Maeglin] per QS77.

{Melko}[Morgoth] per QS77. After BoLT Tolkien almost never uses Melkor in narration of events following Fëanor’s invention of the name Morgoth, except in a back-reference to ancient times.

{Minnastirith}[Minas Tirith] per QS77

{Nan-Tathrin}[Nan-Tathren] per QS77

{Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] per QS77.

{Nauglath}[dwarves of Nogrod] or [Naugrim] per QS77

{Nienóri}[Nienor] per UT.

{Noldoli}[Noldor] per QS77. Noldoli, though possibly still a valid form, is not used at all in QS77or late Tolkien writings.

{Noldorin}[Sindarin] per HoME XI

Nost-na-Lothion: No change. Discussed here

{Nivrost}[Nevrast] per QS77.

{Palúrien}[Kementári] per LQ2 and Valaquenta.

{Peleg}[Huor] per QS77and “Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin”.

{Pengolodh}[Pengoloð] per ‘Eldarin Hands, Fingers, and Numerals’. Discussed in this thread.

{Place of the Gods}[Place of the Ainur], decided here

{Rodnor}[Ereinion] per the ‘Shibboleth’. Discussed in this thread.

{Rodothlim}[Elves of Nargothrond] per QS77.

{Saeros}[Orgol] per CoH

{Salgant}[Talagand] per “The Eytmologies”, decided here

{Sorontur}[Sorontar] per “The Etymologies” (under THOR-, THORON-) and “The Wanderings of Húrin” in The War of the Jewels (HoME 11).

{Sarn Athrad} and {Sarnathrod}[Athrad Daer] per 'Of Maeglin'.

{Silver Bowl}[Dimrost] per QS77.

{Tarin Austa}[Gates of Summer], decided here

{Taur-na-Fuin}[Taur-nu-Fuin] per QS77

{Tauros}[Tauron] per LQ

{Tavros} [Tauron] per LQ

{Teiglin}[Taeglin] per WH note 55.

{Tengwethil}[Taniquetil] per QS77

{Thargelion}[Talath Rhúnen] or [Dor-Caranthir] per HoME XI

{Thingódhel}[Pengoloð] per ‘Eldarin Hands, Fingers, and Numerals’. Discussed in this thread.

{Thorn Sir}[Sîr Thoron], discussed here and here

{Thornhoth}[Thoronhoth] This latter is the probable correct Sindarin form.

{Throndor}[Thorondor] per QS77and LR.

{Thu} [Sauron] or [Gorthaur] per LR.

{Tinwelint}[Thingol] per LR.

{Tower of Ingildon}[Tower of Nimras] per QS77.

{Tumladin}[Tumladen] per QS77.

{Tun}[Túna] per QS77

{Umboth-Muilin}[Aelin-uial] per QS77 and UT

{Úrin}[Húrin] per LR.

{Valmar}[Valimar] per LR

{Ylmir}[Ulmo] per QS77

[gondowe]

Hello. Regarding TNoME Part II, IV. Could we consider Finwain as the last name of Gil-Galad?

Greetings

[Findegil]

Yes, I think the late source given by gondowe does mean that the father-name of the Elve mostly known by his epesse 'Gil-galad' was 'Finwain'.

I will have to search our text to see which older alternatives 'Finwain' has to replace.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Huinesoron]

Not my region of the forum (I haven't the patience!), but I wanted to drop in and mention that NoME might also change your conclusions on Maelor: 3.VII Manwe's Ban uses that form of the name, and is written on papers from 1970. It's also linked by CH to PoME XII.1 Glorfindel II, which CT implies dates from late 1972.

The timeline of the Maelor texts would thus be:

-1955+: The Lay of Leithian Recommenced. Both Maglor & Maelor as written, the latter ultimately being preferred
-1958+: Late change to Later Quenta Silmarillion 2. Maglor > Maelor
-1966+: Return of the King note. Maelor
-1968+: Shibboleth of Feanor [1 footnote + VT41 'Sindarizing']. Maglor
-1972: Manwe's Ban. Maelor

Galin noted back in 2011 that CT implies the story of Amrod being burnt only arose during the writing of the Shibboleth; as the RotK note makes mention of that story, it would seem to be post-Shibboleth.

hS

[Findegil]

Since the decision in the case of Maglor/Maelor was taken due to timing consideartions, I agree that with the new information from NoME we have to switch again back to Maelor.

But before I undertake that work in my working copy, I would like to hear an agreement from at least some members.

Respectfully
Findegil