Ten Year Anniversary Game: Living Thread

[Nerwen]

Firefoot (#37) and Boro (#39), you two are referring to phantom's suggestion at #20?
I had the impression it was off the menu, but if not- look, the problem is that, failing the Seer getting a wolf in that time, it requires not only all the gifteds but all the dreamed innocents not to get eaten until Day 3; meanwhile the wolves are getting 2 kills a Night and we have no chance of lynching a wolf. Plus, there's always the possibility of false reveals.

Originally Posted by Firefoot

I like the idea of deliberately tying the vote today, if possible. A couple thoughts:

1) It seems likely enough that for some reason we don't pull it off (wolves screw it up, accidental cross-posting, someone doesn't vote) - so we should make a deliberate choice of our possible victims.

2) In order to prevent total chaos at the end, what if we orchestrated the vote (these players vote for this person, those players vote for that). Any deviance from this strategy could also be indicative of a non-cooperative WW (or a lover, I guess).

So you're not even necessarily expecting this to work, you're just seeing it as a way of possibly flushing a wolf ("or a lover")? Only what would either really have to gain by breaking the tie? The Lovers just want to stay alive, and the wolves have the Night-kill. Besides, my "accidentally-on-purpose" comment on phantom's other plan applies here also- how could you be sure it wasn't just an honest screw-up? (Also, we don't actually want to expose the Lovers...)

4) As far as victim choice - sort of a shot in the dark anyway - do we go random? Ask for volunteers (at least we don't get a gifted - but then I guess it narrows the wolves' choice for who is gifted, so maybe that's a poor strategy)?

Precisely. So why suggest it?

Might as well pick Nilp since he's already got a vote?

Ah, now we come to the other problem: this plan seems to me virtually to ensure that we occupy two or three days with organising pseudo-lynches of randomly-chosen players, instead of, you know, trying to find wolves.

Really doesn't seem the best option to me...

edit:x'd since Nilp at #40.

[Nogrod]

Werewolf is back! And in a headache-producing form...

I think I'm siding with Macalaure's points to begin with. Playing orchestrated draws with voting is more or less doomed to fail especially in the early stages (because people miss votes, they don't get the information etc.).

But I'd also say there seems to be a lot of confidence that the Dead Thread will both know what to do and what would be the best for the village - and to be able to execute that. What Mac already referred to: the last game the Dead Thread was as totally confused as the Living Thread.

I'd see the situation as follows: the Dead Thread plays somewhat a normal WW-game where they know the identities of some and not of some (so it will be a chaotic mess of points and counterpoints made), the Living Thread is playing a game where no-one knows anything about anything (so it will be a chaotic mess of points and counterpoints made with not even fleeting evidence to back anything).

That said, I'm somewhat optimistic with our chances as a village: there are so many factors involved, not the least the rivalry between the two competing Wolfgangs *sic*.

Like Lottie (I think) said: the death of the first wolf certainly is a priority (well trying to lynch the most probable wolf should be our first priority every Day - let's talk about possible intentional draws later in the game) and a game-changer.

It's like in a football (soccer) game where two sides can play 0-0 for a long time in an important match and both be very careful just trying to avoid mistakes - but when one side finally scores a goal the game changes dramatically because just avoiding mistakes won't do to the team that is trailing in numbers: the game opens up and that gives chaces to both sides to really make results.


Nice to have this game back in the menu!

[Nogrod]

Oh one question on what Greenie said and most people seemed to strongly agree on (maybe I'm just in rust for not playing WW for a long time):

Originally Posted by Greenie

First, I think this is a crucial point. The wolves can (and probably will) engage in completely genuine wolf-hunting during Day phases, which means that we have to think differently than we would in a normal game; we have wolves who don't know everyone's alignment and who have a good motive to hunt bad guys too. That means they're not by default lying when they say they suspect someone, so a fake-looking case alone is not as strong a sign of wolfishness as it usually is.

I'm just a bit confused about the last sentence, the conclusion, or the POV of it, that is.

I mean my conclusion from the thoughts above would be that there probably wouldn't be that many fake-looking cases as the wolves don't have to pretend suspecting someone but are actually really suspecting someone for being a baddie - and the more important consequence of that would then be that the best wolf-lynchers shouldn't be regarded as "more probably goodies" just by their "good nose" on lynching baddies (actually it seems other wolves have a slight advance over normal villagers on sniffing the other wolves out).

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

there seems to be a lot of confidence that the Dead Thread will both know what to do and what would be the best for the village

They'll know what the Living know plus more, so logically they should be able to help, particularly if the Living provide them with a structure in which to do so.

Originally Posted by Nog

the last game the Dead Thread was as totally confused as the Living Thread

Yeah they were. Mwu ha ha ha!

But that was totally different, because the Dead couldn't confirm roles. If they had been able to do so they would've tested Seer-Nog as soon as you went to the Dead thread and suddenly things would've been different.

There is concrete knowledge available to us in this game. We need to try and grab it.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

They'll know what the Living know plus more, so logically they should be able to help, particularly if the Living provide them with a structure in which to do so.

The Dead will know more - and they should help in the best way they can - but I'm a bit more realist on the issue of how successful they will be just sorting out things among themselves - or how happy they would be to follow strict guidelines given by people in the Living Thread they do not know the alignment of...

Originally Posted by tp

There is concrete knowledge available to us in this game. We need to try and grab it.

Certainly - and that will be the Dead Thread who has it (and hopefully at some stages also the Living Thread). Fully agreed.

[Loslote]

I have work today, but I'll be back before deadline. A couple last thoughts:

It doesn't make sense to tie before the Dead thread starts up, since we have a better chance at killing wolves and avoiding Gifteds if we lynch than if we leave it to the Night kills (see my above post).

I am also dubious about giving the Dead thread the power to choose who dies in the lynch - I agree that it would be good to set up a system wherein the Dead can let us know who they checked and what the result was, but I would prefer for that system to not give the Dead the ultimate choice. After all, if all we the voters can do is comply with the voting scheme already set out, we do not get nearly as much information on the voters. Even if we don't know the result of the vote, looking at people's votes with an eye to what they appear to be trying to do, who they want lynched, and who they don't gives us a lot of information that we wouldn't get if we gave that power to the Dead.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

O esteemed Mod, a clarification about the Dead Thread extra vote? So do the dead vote for a living player or double that player's vote? I interpreted it as the former (the Dead Thread vote being simply a ++person-of-their-choice) but the way I understood phantom's theory above, he seems to have interpreted it as the latter (the person chosen by the Dead gets to vote twice). The wording of the rules could mean either.

I suppose they could, but your version would mean that the Dead can participate in the lynch *directly*, which would seem to me to rather miss the point of the whole "death" thing. But I could be wrong.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But I'd also say there seems to be a lot of confidence that the Dead Thread will both know what to do and what would be the best for the village - and to be able to execute that. What Mac already referred to: the last game the Dead Thread was as totally confused as the Living Thread.

Did the Dead have any way of checking roles that game?
Edit:x'd since Nog at #47.

[Mithalwen]

I may as well state now that I didn't come back to Werewolf to merely be a pawn in anyone's masterplan and I certainly don't want to play if it is a case of "Do what Phantom tells you or it is all your fault". So to be clear, I will vote as I see fit, not as I am told, dead or alive. It is a game, it is meant to be fun. I am not here to be a minion, bullied or bored to sobs.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Ah, now we come to the other problem: this plan seems to me virtually to ensure that we occupy two or three days with organising pseudo-lynches of randomly-chosen players, instead of, you know, trying to find wolves.

Especially since we as a village have (as I believe Mac said) a 25% chance of catching a wolf, whereas the Night kills have a 15% chance. I'd also like to add that we as a village have a further 21% (5/24) chance of accidentally killing a Gifted, where the Night kills have a 25% (5/20 - assuming we do not ourselves lynch a Gifted toDay) chance of purposefully killing a Gifted. It's much much riskier to trust the wolf killing to the wolves, since they are far more likely to kill a Gifted than a wolf, whereas we are slightly more likely to kill a wolf than a Gifted.

[Firefoot]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Firefoot (#37) and Boro (#39), you two are referring to phantom's suggestion at #20?

Yes.

I had the impression it was off the menu

I didn't realize that? No one seemed to be talking about it much...

So you're not even necessarily expecting this to work, you're just seeing it as a way of possibly flushing a wolf ("or a lover")?

Not at all, what the heck? I thought it was an interesting idea and wanted to suggest some considerations, that's all. And I was more interested in it for toDay than future Days. I know it's been a long time since I've done this but I have a lot of memories of really poor day 1 lynches.