Isengard- Help Wanted!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I don't think at this point Saruman's intentions and treachery would have been known, it's just a factual statement that he begins making trouble for Rohan during Thengel's reign. Unfinished Tales makes clear Eomer and Theodred did not trust Saruman, which is why he arguably spends way too much effort and resources on sundering them from Théoden (and trying to kill them) and putting Grima forward as Théoden's trusted counselor.

That all sounds fairly plausible to me.

Originally Posted by Boro

I do think it more likely that Grima would have been the one (under orders from Saruman) to deliver Saruman's offer to Théoden, than Saruman making the offer to Théoden in person. It can be assumed Grima would travel between Isengard and Edoras (in UT: Hunt for the Ring there is a mention of the Witch-King intercepting Grima on one occasion when he was going between the two places. Although, I can't speak about the canonicity of this part). From Saruman's perspective, it would have been an offer proposed by him (he wasn't one to credit Grima for anything, except for killing and eating Lotho). And in Théoden's perspective, he blamed Saruman more for the wrongs done to him than Grima. Théoden looked at Grima more mercifully and trying to absolve Grima of most of the blame. Théoden placed the blame solely on "the enemy," Saruman.

Possible; although I would have several "buts" to it. First, I am pretty sure Gríma did not just randomly walk between Isengard and Edoras, certainly not officially (otherwise he'd be so suspicious, even if he'd used to do it only before Saruman openly became the enemy! And Gandalf proclaims his revelation that Saruman has bought Wormtongue as a big thing and it seems to e.g. dawn upon Éomer only in that moment), I always imagined it the way that Gríma sneakily traveled to Isengard from time to time when he was on a "holiday" or somesuch ("sir, I'm going to take a week off, I have to visit my old grandmother in the Westfold"). So there is no way he could deliver any official message in Saruman's name.

The way I imagine it, he could of course be told by Saruman something along the lines of "hint to the King that we might come to a mutually benefitial agreement" (but we know he'd been doing that until Saruman's treachery could no longer be concealed, and I don't think that that's what Saruman was talking about, because he seems to have something specific and big in mind).

But also, another question is for how long had Gríma been Théoden's counsellor. Saruman's offer could have also come before that (e.g. see my conspiracy theory above, previous post, end of the first paragraph). In any case, I would imagine the proposal to be actually a fairly open one - the way Saruman phrases it - or at least fairly openly proclaiming that it comes from Saruman himself. It might have been delivered by any means - a letter, any messenger other than Gríma - so it wouldn't really contradict anything regarding Théoden speaking or not speaking to Saruman before the fall of Isengard.