T-I-G CVIII: Wolves of the Galadhrim (Game Thread)

[Rikae]

An Elven-maid there was of old,
A shining star by day:
Her mantle white was hemmed with gold,
Her paws of silver-grey.

Lottie replying to Aganzir:

Are wolves usually told when there's a cursed in play? I've only been cursed once before (one of Sally's games), and I'm pretty sure the wolves didn't know before they turned me that that was a possibility.

Once BEFORE???!!

Kitanna, I was hoping you were only because otherwise I have to consider the possibility that Nimrodel is the cursed.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Kitanna, I was hoping you were only because otherwise I have to consider the possibility that Nimrodel is the cursed.

Maybe she absorbed the powers of the one she killed. *shrug*

[Rikae]

I wasn't expecting to find that, but now that I think about it, it makes sense.

We weren't told there would be other special roles, though it is possible "secret stuff", it seems more likely there are no other roles than the ones listed:

Originally Posted by Admin Thread

Galadriel (Seer)– dreams a player every Night.
Amroth (Ranger/Lover)– protects a player every Night. May not pick the same player twice in a row. May or may not be able to self-protect. (i.e. I’m not telling.)
Nimrodel (Lover)– The exact nature of the Lovers' relationship is a secret. You are free to speculate.

Depending on numbers, there may be some more secret stuff...

In the narration from the very odd night in question, the narration Nerwen emphasized was accurate, we have:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

But the greatest triumph of all lay before her, for she was certain, now, that she had seen through the disguise of the Lady Galadriel.

So... Agan is going to attack the person she thinks is Galadriel, running up the stair:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

As she raced up the stair that led to her victim's flet

And is shot by Loslote (can we assume this now?) who is standing above her on the stair:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

She looked down in disbelief at the feathered shaft protruding from her furry ribcage, then up at the slender figure who stood at the top of the stairs, holding a bow and arrow.

And finally

Originally Posted by Nerwen

"Well met!" said the werewolf. "And thank you. Aganzir had outlived her usefulness- you have done us a service by disposing of her."

Nimrodel's eyes searched the surrounding foliage, but the leaves were too dense for her to be able to tell if the wolf was alone.

"Us? Are there more of you? And who are you? I charge you, tell me your name!"

"Now wouldn't you like to know?" laughed the wolf.

"Us" could refer to the wolf and Nimrodel.

The more I think about this, the more sense it makes to me.

And there is also this:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

There was, she realised, no peace for her in bringing justice to one of Amroth's murderers. Only when the last one lay dead at her hand- only when she had killed them, all of them- then, perhaps, she would know peace.

Amroth's murderers wouldn't be the wolves, it would be Aganzir, Sally and Kitanna.

And look who Lottie wants to lynch toDay.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Amroth's murderers wouldn't be the wolves, it would be Aganzir, Sally and Kitanna.

And look who Lottie wants to lynch toDay.

Huh, interesting. So do you suppose Nimrodel is cursed AND out for revenge? Or just out for revenge? If she is Nimrodel and is telling the truth about her role she's effectively an ordo so it's just personal now.

I don't know, I'm still not sold that Lottie is actually Nimrodel.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Huh, interesting. So do you suppose Nimrodel is cursed AND out for revenge? Or just out for revenge? If she is Nimrodel and is telling the truth about her role she's effectively an ordo so it's just personal now.

I'm not sure. Could be either, I guess. Maybe she can only kill the people who voted for Tar? She could still have killed Sally last Night. Perhaps killing them all is her condition for winning? In which case, I wonder if the village can win along with her, or if we need to lynch her to win.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I don't know, I'm still not sold that Lottie is actually Nimrodel.

Well, I definitely am not. I don't know how to prove it, but your guess about having to keep my role secret isn't what happened - I'm just an ordo.
That's actually (though it seems a bit wrong to mention it) why I wasn't here on Day 1. If I had gotten a PM, I would have been notified by email and known the game had started.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I'm not sure. Could be either, I guess. Maybe she can only kill the people who voted for Tar? She could still have killed Sally last Night. Perhaps killing them all is her condition for winning? In which case, I wonder if the village can win along with her, or if we need to lynch her to win.

I was thinking maybe the game drags on until she or I is dead, but that wouldn't make sense. I mean if that is the case it's not a very high stakes ending. Either you vote to lynch me today and Nimrodel is satisfied and the game ends. We vote to lynch her and the game ends. Or we vote to kill you and Nimrodel offs me in the Night and the game ends. Sounds wrong, but we've been in the dark a lot of this game as it is. More so than usual. If Nimrodel is cursed that would make way more sense. Cursed and out for revenge.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I was thinking maybe the game drags on until she or I is dead, but that wouldn't make sense. I mean if that is the case it's not a very high stakes ending. Either you vote to lynch me today and Nimrodel is satisfied and the game ends. We vote to lynch her and the game ends. Or we vote to kill you and Nimrodel offs me in the Night and the game ends. Sounds wrong, but we've been in the dark a lot of this game as it is. More so than usual. If Nimrodel is cursed that would make way more sense. Cursed and out for revenge.

But Nerwen wouldn't have known how it would pan out when she set up the rules. It could have ended up with Nimrodel killing multiple wolves, or multiple villagers - she could have been charged with killing half the village, or she could have been dead before the wolves were.

However, there is still that 2-3 wolves thing.

[Rikae]

And of course, my whole suspicion of Lottie is based on the idea that she actually hinted to the wolves that she was cursed, and they attacked her because of it.

Why would she do that? I can think of a couple possibilities:
a) maybe she is both cursed and out for revenge, and wanted to be a wolf so she could have night kills?
b) maybe she was simply a hunter (and out for revenge) and could only kill Agan if she was attacked?
c)????
d)profit

Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Perhaps killing them all is her condition for winning? In which case, I wonder if the village can win along with her, or if we need to lynch her to win.

I am worried about this too. There's a few possibilities in my mind.

1. if Lottie is an innocent hunter with no ulterior motives. There was a wolf (whether from the beginning of the game, or a cursed who turned). If we lynch Lottie toDay, the wolf will nab an Ordo toNight and toMorrow will be 2 ordos vs 1 wolf. Not horrible odds but not great either.
2. Lottie doesn't care about the village, she just wants revenge. Her win condition included killing all wolves AND the people who killed Tar-Jex. There are no more wolves around (after all, the narration for last night did not include any "wolfish" elements. If we let Lottie live tonight, she might be able to "revenge kill" Kit and win. Or just convince all of us to do her job for her toDay.
3. To make things worse, what if Lottie still has her "hunter kill" ability if she gets lynched or attacked by a wolf. In this scenario there's one last wolf around. Meaning that killing her MIGHT end up with someone else dead, who could be an ordo... effectively handing the game to the remaining wolf

Now Coppermirror has replied after Lottie's reveal, and didn't say anything about being Nimrodel, which has me thinking there will be no more reveals toDay.

I'm at a loss. Now that I've had time to read the whole discussion for today (and having Lottie's reveal), I somewhat see Rikae's point, though I still have a bad feeling about her insistence in trying to unmask Nimrodel.

I just feel we don't know enough about the parameters of the game to really figure out where we stand, which makes interpreting peoples' comments a bit more difficult (e.g. is this a misguided Ordo or a wolf or a vengeful Nerwen? What are the win conditions for the non-Ordos?)

I'm tempted to trust Lottie on the basis of Occam's razor, but that leaves the question of whether the remaining wolf was there from the beginning (and thus Kit or Rikae) or if it may have been a cursed who turned (which would add everyone else to the mix, really).

(Note that's not an edit, my girlfriend got home as I was writing this and got distracted. I likely cross posted with a bunch of people. The last post I read was Rikae's ??? Profit one

[Coppermirror]

Originally Posted by Farael

Now Coppermirror has replied after Lottie's reveal, and didn't say anything about being Nimrodel, which has me thinking there will be no more reveals toDay.

Nope, I'm definitely not Nimrodel. Sally also dreamed of you, so it should be impossible for you to be Nimrodel either.

I'm sorry for not having contributed more to the discussion so far. Problem is, there are so many potential variables.

Right now, I think it's most likely that if we have a wolf remaining, it's a cursed wolf, because what other explanation is there for the lack of a wolf kill on the Night that Aganzir died? And if we have a third wolf (however they got there), it makes sense that Nimrodel would be on the side of the village, because if not, that would be a vicious game balance. I'm going to discard the possibilty that the game is so unfair.

However, if Nimrodel were to be a third, cursed wolf, that wouldn't break the game. But it would mean she had three roles - lover, hunter, cursed. That's an awfully complicated thing to put in a game without explaining it to the village. Would Nerwen really do that?

And if there is no "wolf" any more but what we have is just Nimrodel's revenge on the Amroth voters, it's...a bit odd. I would have expected the game to end with the last wolf's death even if Nimrodel had a vendetta. And this would not explain why it is that there was no wolf kill on the Night that Agan died.

I haven't read through all of this page in detail, so I'll read through the posts toDay so far carefully and see if my opinion changes, but right now I'm inclined to trust Lottie and to look for a cursed wolf. Which means I'll go back to looking through the older posts for who I think the wolves might have targeted.

Edit: crossed with Rikae

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Coppermirror

However, if Nimrodel were to be a third, cursed wolf, that wouldn't break the game. But it would mean she had three roles - lover, hunter, cursed. That's an awfully complicated thing to put in a game without explaining it to the village. Would Nerwen really do that?

The way I see it, it wouldn't need to be any of those roles fully (she's not a normal hunter, for instance, as far as we already know) but a new role with similarities to those.
She's more of an assassin than a hunter anyway, seems like.

Originally Posted by Coppermirror

And if there is no "wolf" any more but what we have is just Nimrodel's revenge on the Amroth voters, it's...a bit odd. I would have expected the game to end with the last wolf's death even if Nimrodel had a vendetta. And this would not explain why it is that there was no wolf kill on the Night that Agan died.

The most likely scenario to me is that Loslote was the wolves' target (the narration suggests as much, and so does the fact that they could well have thought she was cursed).
Why she didn't die - well, either she was cursed, or maybe her one-time "assassination" ability also protects her. But wouldn't she know that?

What we do have is this: that Aganwolf brought up the possibility of a cursed, and that the following night, there was no wolf kill. I think not having a cursed is too much to hope for.

Edit: just realized as it was posting that I wanted to add: "Aganwolf brought up the possibility of a cursed that the wolves knew about"