Hobbit2 - Chapter 05 - Riddles in the Dark - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tar-Jêx · 10-20-2014, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

I confess I don't quite see the need Tolkien felt to rewrite this chapter for LOTR. Must reread The Illustrated Hobbit.

I know this is a bit of a revival of the topic, but in the original version of the chapter, Gollum willingly bets the ring on their riddle competition, which was in huge contrast to his character in LotR. It also clashes with the lore of the ring, as well, as there is no way that a being who had had possession of such an item for that amount of time could just give it up. It would not be possible to do such a thing because of the nature of the ring, and so it was revised that he dropped the ring somewhere without noticing.
While you can say that he would be so obsessed with keeping the ring on him at all times, I think that he would have let his guard down after facing no threats to his precious for a long time.
The revision was most necessary in order to keep consistent with the rest of the lore surrounding Gollum and the Ring. I'm pretty sure we'd rip the chapter apart otherwise for how non-canonical it would feel.

Faramir Jones · 06-05-2015, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tar-Jêx

I know this is a bit of a revival of the topic, but in the original version of the chapter, Gollum willingly bets the ring on their riddle competition, which was in huge contrast to his character in LotR. It also clashes with the lore of the ring, as well, as there is no way that a being who had had possession of such an item for that amount of time could just give it up. It would not be possible to do such a thing because of the nature of the ring, and so it was revised that he dropped the ring somewhere without noticing.
While you can say that he would be so obsessed with keeping the ring on him at all times, I think that he would have let his guard down after facing no threats to his precious for a long time.
The revision was most necessary in order to keep consistent with the rest of the lore surrounding Gollum and the Ring. I'm pretty sure we'd rip the chapter apart otherwise for how non-canonical it would feel.

While I agree with you about the chapter's revision, and that it was necessary, Gollum didn't drop the Ring. Gandalf clearly said to Frodo that the Ring voluntarily left Gollum, the reason being that the latter wasn't going to voluntarily leave the Misty Mountains. Therefore, it was better for the Ring to leave Gollum, to be picked up by someone more suitable, such that it might eventually get back to Sauron. Of course, it was picked up by Bilbo...

Inziladun · 06-05-2015, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

While I agree with you about the chapter's revision, and that it was necessary, Gollum didn't drop the Ring. Gandalf clearly said to Frodo that the Ring voluntarily left Gollum, the reason being that the latter wasn't going to voluntarily leave the Misty Mountains. Therefore, it was better for the Ring to leave Gollum, to be picked up by someone more suitable, such that it might eventually get back to Sauron. Of course, it was picked up by Bilbo...

Not to mention Gandalf's implication to Frodo that some other force was also at work; it was meant for Bilbo to find the Ring.

***Mithadan*** · 06-05-2015, 08:01 AM

Setting aside the bridge this chapter presents to the Lord of the Rings, the most significant aspect was that Bilbo learned to be self-sufficient. He did not rely upon Gandalf or the Dwarves to rescue him. Instead, he managed to rescue himself. This is a significant step in the development of Bilbo. After his escape from the caverns under the Misty Mountains, he achieves the self confidence and self reliance to chase away the spiders of Mirkwood and rescue the Dwarves from the dungeons of the Wood Elves. This leads to Bilbo's willingness to enter the Lonely Mountain by himself and later strike the bargain regarding the Arkenstone.

In short, he becomes brave. He becomes a hero rather than comic relief. And in doing so, The Hobbit begins the transition from a children's tale to part of the larger history of Middle Earth. So this chapter could also be considered a significant step in the evolution of Tolkien as an author as well.

Faramir Jones · 06-05-2015, 08:37 AM

I agree with you here, Mithadan. Bilbo becomes brave, but also resourceful, without which his bravery would count for little. The dwarves start to treat him with respect, after finding out that he escaped the Misty Mountains on his own.

When he met them again, they and Gandalf were debating going back to rescue him.

As you said, it's a prelude to him dealing with the spiders in Mirkwood, and successfully rescuing the dwarves from the Elvenkings cells, all warming up to him voluntarily deciding to go and confront Smaug.

The Hobbit certainly becomes a more 'adult' tale from Chapter 5 on, one that Tolkien is able to later integrate into the history of Middle-earth.

06-05-2015, 08:01 AM	#4
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,398	Setting aside the bridge this chapter presents to the Lord of the Rings, the most significant aspect was that Bilbo learned to be self-sufficient. He did not rely upon Gandalf or the Dwarves to rescue him. Instead, he managed to rescue himself. This is a significant step in the development of Bilbo. After his escape from the caverns under the Misty Mountains, he achieves the self confidence and self reliance to chase away the spiders of Mirkwood and rescue the Dwarves from the dungeons of the Wood Elves. This leads to Bilbo's willingness to enter the Lonely Mountain by himself and later strike the bargain regarding the Arkenstone. In short, he becomes brave. He becomes a hero rather than comic relief. And in doing so, The Hobbit begins the transition from a children's tale to part of the larger history of Middle Earth. So this chapter could also be considered a significant step in the evolution of Tolkien as an author as well. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

06-05-2015, 08:37 AM	#5
Faramir Jones Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lonely Isle Posts: 706	I agree I agree with you here, Mithadan. Bilbo becomes brave, but also resourceful, without which his bravery would count for little. The dwarves start to treat him with respect, after finding out that he escaped the Misty Mountains on his own. When he met them again, they and Gandalf were debating going back to rescue him. As you said, it's a prelude to him dealing with the spiders in Mirkwood, and successfully rescuing the dwarves from the Elvenkings cells, all warming up to him voluntarily deciding to go and confront Smaug. The Hobbit certainly becomes a more 'adult' tale from Chapter 5 on, one that Tolkien is able to later integrate into the history of Middle-earth.