Silmarillion - Chapter 24 - Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath

[Nerwen]

In fact,

Originally Posted by VarTalman

Again, the Biblical account of the Flood closely parallels Tolkien's Flood end of the flat world and beginning of a globe. Earendil's fleet being the only to survive is like Noah's family being saved. The fleet having no navigational control in the washout is like Noah not steering the ark. The floodgates are opened in both stories.

VarTalman, I am sure you're conflating Elendil with Earendil and the War of Wrath (ending the First Age) with the Downfall of Numenor (ending the Second). The *latter* (which, though it too may have similarities to the Flood story, is most obviously based on that of Atlantis) is the one which involves the change from a flat to a round world.

[Belegorn]

I don't know about any Biblical parallels with the sinking of Númenor especially since the water never receded. I'd think Thingol + Melian is more like the Angel + Man thing since she was one of the gods and Thingol being an Elf was closely related to Men. Death is the fate of man in Arda. They are thus called the visitors. The Elves on the other hand are immortal so long as Arda endures and even they taste death before that. Eärendil had nothing to do with a flood or drowning, he did fight a dragon in the War of Wrath. Sauron sort of lost his physical form, he could not take pleasing shapes after Númenor's destruction, but he was not disembodied ever after. He took shape more than once after his body was destroyed. Remember the Last Alliance fought an embodied Sauron. Isildur cut the Ring off of his finger at the end of the 2nd Age. In the 3rd Age he was not seen, but not disembodied. Gollum himself even says he saw his four-fingered hand.

[VarTalman]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

In fact,

VarTalman, I am sure you're conflating Elendil with Earendil and the War of Wrath (ending the First Age) with the Downfall of Numenor (ending the Second). The *latter* (which, though it too may have similarities to the Flood story, is most obviously based on that of Atlantis) is the one which involves the change from a flat to a round world.

Yes, thank you. Wrong chapter.

But the parallels are there with intention. We write from what we know. Tolkien knew the narrative of scripture thoroughly. I will have words with anyone who thinks otherwise. The parallels are strong. Tolkien was relating to all human history so to tie in Atlantis was to add lore. It is quite fascinating how actual history translates into Middle Earth and because the biblical narratives of Creation, the Fall, Job, Isaac and Ishmael, Noah, Hell, the Cross, The Empty Tomb, Revelation all are resourced by Tolkien in his books, it is then fair to say that this was his intention.

Also, the Elves have their place if paralleled to angels as in Tolkien's letter published at the beginning in Christopher's Sil. Tolkien admits the Sil to be the tale of pre-human history which scripture allows room for. Angels play their part in our human history every day. Men do enter the story of Creation but long after the Elves who if angels in representation had the First Age to themselves.

If I am correct, Tolkien had to account for the chaining and bannishment of Satan from heaven, the creation of Hell, the building of Eden all before introducing humans to the tale. Which is pretty much what Tolkien did.

It would be quite a Herculaen task to basically take much of actual human history as accounted for in the Bible, translate it to Middle Earth, tie all of the correct connections together... all of which Tolkien did in 50 years and longer. To say that he did not do anything like this is to detract from Tolkien's greatness and genius. It is quite evident that he did, and I will not take that from him.

Tolkien did not like allegory. It might have been that he was actually expounding on true human history and therefore did not want his works excused as quaint.

Secular skeptics rob Tolkien of his magnificent work when they do not know the Bible and think he was avoiding all ties. Christian skeptics detract from his genius when they follow popular secular thought and do not take fully into account how much theology Tolkien studied and how he attacked C.S. Lewis for handling the Biblical stories childishly. Catholic elder, Oxford fellow, Tolkien engulfed his life in the Bible. He is not borrowing tidbits from it. He expounded on the meta-narrative of all of scripture, both Old and New Testaments. Let no one cheapen his masterpiece. Tolkien, as a strong man of faith knew like Lewis he would have to answer to God with what he did with his life and what legacy he left behind. He also knew that leading people astray after death only aquires more guilt on his own head. Tolkien was careful with his own eternal soul and also with the souls of his readers.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by VarTalman

Men do enter the story of Creation but long after the Elves who if angels in representation had the First Age to themselves.

The rising of the Sun was the start of the 1st Age, into which Men were come. There were Ages before that, but this was before the Sun was made.

Originally Posted by VarTalman

If I am correct, Tolkien had to account for the chaining and bannishment of Satan from heaven, the creation of Hell, the building of Eden all before introducing humans to the tale.

This was actually accomplished when Elves were introduced into the tale. The Valar had the Elves come to Aman where Melkor was imprisoned for three Ages. Also, the Maiar were all bound to Eä who entered it. There was no heaven. Melkor reigned in the North of Beleriand. Aman was set west of Beleriand in the sea. In Manwë's words:

Originally Posted by Of the Coming of the Elves

we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadow of Melkor.

I'm not sure about the Aman - Eden comparison. It was never meant to be a home to Men, but rather of the Elves [who it seems you are assuming are like the angels of the Bible; I'd say, if I were to have a pick, that it was the Maiar who were like angels] and the Maiar, and they built it and fortified it as a defense against Melkor.

[Faramir Jones]

When I read this chapter, particularly about the Great Battle, I keep thinking of what Bilbo said above, after finding out about the outcome of the Battle of the Five Armies.

In this world, there's also what the Duke of Wellington wrote about the aftermath of the Battle of Waterloo (1815), his great victory: 'My heart is broken by the terrible loss I have sustained in my old friends and companions and my poor soldiers. Believe me, nothing except a battle lost can be half so melancholy as a battle won'.

This is without even mentioning Tolkien's own experience of the First World War, and how he and many of his contemporaries might have thought when it ended.

In one sense, it's even worse than the wars already mentioned; because while not only have so many been killed, maimed, mutilated, and suffered psychological scars (what Tolkien's contemporaries would have called 'shell shock'), Belariand itself has been destroyed. Belgium and Northern France at least survived what happened in 1914-1918, although they still show the scars.

We also have the victors fighting among themselves, the surviving sons of Fëanor killing again to take the surviving Silmarils, but finding that they couldn't keep them...

Do people feel that the Valar missed an opportunity, by failing to take Sauron prisoner as well as Morgoth?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

This is without even mentioning Tolkien's own experience of the First World War, and how he and many of his contemporaries might have thought when it ended.

In one sense, it's even worse than the wars already mentioned; because while not only have so many been killed, maimed, mutilated, and suffered psychological scars (what Tolkien's contemporaries would have called 'shell shock'), Belariand itself has been destroyed. Belgium and Northern France at least survived what happened in 1914-1918, although they still show the scars.

Even though Western Europe was not destroyed in the Great War, in a sense it had indeed gone forever, as those of Tolkien's time might have thought.

That war was one in which traditional conduct of honor and chivalry in battle were finally dismissed, and civilian casualties were no longer seen as something to be avoided at all costs, but a means to demoralize the enemy.

It also brought the use of WMDs in the form of mustard gas, and aerial conflict. I've wondered if the sights and sounds of dogfighting aircraft might not have figured in Tolkien's mind as he conceived the fight of Eärendil and Ancalagon.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Do people feel that the Valar missed an opportunity, by failing to take Sauron prisoner as well as Morgoth?

I think the Valar wanted to give Sauron the benefit of the doubt, seeing him maybe as a deluded and misguided servant. After all, Ulmo's vassal Ossë had been deceived by Melkor long before, and had been given an opportunity to repent, which he had accepted.

[Mithadan]

Absent from the published Silmarillion are a few lines found in Morgoth's Ring (don't recall which section, either the Annals of Aman or the later Silmarillion) regarding Morgoth's release from Mandos. Manwe is described as being without evil and being unable to understand it. As a result, he believed that Morgoth could be redeemed or rehabilitated.

The same error seems to have been made regarding Sauron after Morgoth's defeat.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Absent from the published Silmarillion are a few lines found in Morgoth's Ring (don't recall which section, either the Annals of Aman or the later Silmarillion) regarding Morgoth's release from Mandos. Manwe is described as being without evil and being unable to understand it. As a result, he believed that Morgoth could be redeemed or rehabilitated.

The same error seems to have been made regarding Sauron after Morgoth's defeat.

Indeed. Giving second chances was apparently hardwired into the Valar. Remember too that Gandalf was ready to pardon and allow Saruman to repent, though in that case an imperfect and merely temporary atonement would seem to have carried much more risk than a backsliding Sauron.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

The rising of the Sun was the start of the 1st Age, into which Men were come. There were Ages before that, but this was before the Sun was made.

This is true in the Silmarillion as first written and also in the Silmarillion as published by Christopher Tolkien. However when setting up the Silmarillion material when writing The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien changed this. See the first four lines of the poem “The World was young, the mountains green” on page 315:

The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet on the Moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone.

In the standard Silmarillion chronology these events occurred long before Sun and Moon were created from the last fruit and flower of the Two Trees.

Gandalf later sings a short poem about the Ents (emphasis mine) on page 544:

Ere iron was found or tree was hewn,
When young was mountain under moon;
Ere ring was made, or wrought was woe,
It walked the forests long ago.

Here the moon predates the first hewing of trees, presumably by Elves.

Tolkien had originally written in The Hobbit:

In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight before the raising of the Sun and Moon; and afterwards they wandered in the forests that grew beneath the sunrise.

In the revision of 1966 this was changed, removing all mention of a “raising of the Sun and Moon”:

In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon, but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost.

In the last three volumes of the HoME series the Sun and Moon are in existence in all accounts if Middle-earth from earliest times, save in accounts attributed to the “Quenta Silmarillion” or the “Grey Annals”. The Silmarillion is here imagined as a partially inaccurate mythology partially invented by Men.

In Morgoth’s Ring (HoME X), Christopher Tolkien writes as Note 19:

In other scribbled notes (written at the same time as text II and constituting a part of that manuscript) my father wrote that Varda gave the holy light received in gift from Ilúvatar (see p. 380) not only to the Sun and to the Two Trees but also to ‘the significant Star’. The meaning of this is nowhere explained. Beside it he wrote Signifier, and many experimental Elvish names, as Taengyl, Tengyl, Tannacolli or Tankol, Tainacolli; also a verbal root tana ‘show, indicate’; tanna ‘sign’; and kolla ‘borne, worn especially a vestment or cloak’, with the note ‘Sindikoll-o is masculinized’.

It seems to me that this “significant Star” was likely intended by Tolkien to have been the planet Venus, the brightest regularly seen object in the sky next to the Sun and Moon. The story that Eärendil became with his ship the planet Venus was intended to become a further mythical inaccuracy in the Silmarillion account of Eärendil’s fate, similar to the mythical account that the Sun and Moon were in origin the last fruit and flower of the Two Trees.

Note that in all Silmarillion accounts Eärendil’s heavenly ship is identical with his earthly ship Vingilot in which Eärendil “was lifted up even into the oceans of heaven” and which he sails through the air to his battle with the dragon Ancalagon the Black. However in Bilbo’s poem “Eärendel was a mariner”:

A ship then new they built for him
of mithril and of elven-glass
with shining prow; no shaven oar
nor sail she bore on silver mast:
the Silmaril as lantern light
and banner bright with living flame
to gleam thereon by Elbereth
herself was set, who thither came
and wings immortal made for him,
and laid on him undying doom,
to sail the shoreless skies and come
behind the Sun and light of Moon.