Why Genealogies? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Inziladun · 09-08-2014, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radagastly

Except, perhaps, the Ents.

Well, that's true. Due to their shrinking population and having their dwelling-place protected by an aura of fear, they were pretty much unthreatened. I'd put them apart from Elves, Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits though.
Also, Ents don't seen concerned with genealogies, probably because their family trees (ha!) would only have had a branch or two, due to their longevity and slow rate of breeding.

shadowfax · 09-09-2014, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, that's true. Due to their shrinking population and having their dwelling-place protected by an aura of fear, they were pretty much unthreatened. I'd put them apart from Elves, Men, Dwarves, and Hobbits though.
Also, Ents don't seen concerned with genealogies, probably because their family trees (ha!) would only have had a branch or two, due to their longevity and slow rate of breeding.

And such things would have taken a long long time to recite.

As far as we know, Ents didn't write anything down. I suppose they didn't need to as their memories stretched back virtually to the dawn of time.

Mithalwen · 09-09-2014, 10:58 AM

I don't think Ents would approve much of writing on paper, probably not think it was worth killing trees for... though you can, write on parchment which involves killing animals... maybe they could have used paper made from oliphaunt dung with a clear conscience ( I was givem some elephant dung stationery once).

Inziladun · 09-09-2014, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't think Ents would approve much of writing on paper, probably not think it was worth killing trees for... though you can, write on parchment which involves killing animals... maybe they could have used paper made from oliphaunt dung with a clear conscience ( I was givem some elephant dung stationery once).

The thought of dung-based stationery is an idea that honestly has never crossed my mind. Maybe that was the Mordor default, which could explain the foul stench of Orcs.

It seems Hobbits would have used wood pulp for their paper, though they no doubt practiced careful forestry to preserve wood used for that and other applications, as well as to enjoy the woods for natural beauty.

shadowfax · 09-09-2014, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The thought of dung-based stationery is an idea that honestly has never crossed my mind. Maybe that was the Mordor default, which could explain the foul stench of Orcs.

It seems Hobbits would have used wood pulp for their paper, though they no doubt practiced careful forestry to preserve wood used for that and other applications, as well as to enjoy the woods for natural beauty.

The highest quality of paper is not made from wood pulp (too acidic) but from cotton.

Mithalwen · 09-10-2014, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inziladun

The thought of dung-based stationery is an idea that honestly has never crossed my mind. Maybe that was the Mordor default, which could explain the foul stench of Orcs.

It seems Hobbits would have used wood pulp for their paper, though they no doubt practiced careful forestry to preserve wood used for that and other applications, as well as to enjoy the woods for natural beauty.

Nor mine til my sister spent time at an elephant sanctuary in Thailand. It didn't actually smell. I don't think they had cotton in Middle earth. Isn't it a plant of the new world? Ok they had spuds but , aybe they were brought from the west via Numenor. We do take cheap paper for granted.

Alfirin · 09-10-2014, 05:37 PM

Actually cotton is an odd one, origin wise. Species were domesticated in the old and new worlds simultaneously. Most cotton TODAY comes from the New World species. But cotton existed in both Africa and Asia for millennia, and was known to the ancients. In fact many authorities on folklore believe that the origin of the mythical animal know as a barometz, or vegetable lamb of Tartary (basically a sheep that grew out of the ground and remained attached to a stalk through it's umbilicus) was the attempt of an ancient Hebrew writer to try and describe cotton, and using a word that could me either "apple" or "sheep" depending on the vowels (which as in modern Hebrew are often not written down) Certainly some bits of the barometz mythology certainly sound like they are talking of cotton (especially the bit about the wool of a barometz being makeable into a fabric equal to the finest wool, but unlike wool, being easily washable without shrinkage). So ME could have had cotton (maybe from the South or East, before the shadow ultimately consumed them.)

shadowfax · 09-11-2014, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Nor mine til my sister spent time at an elephant sanctuary in Thailand. It didn't actually smell. I don't think they had cotton in Middle earth. Isn't it a plant of the new world? Ok they had spuds but , aybe they were brought from the west via Numenor. We do take cheap paper for granted.

What did Rosie Cotton's name mean if they didn't know what cotton was?

Mithalwen · 09-16-2014, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadowfax

What did Rosie Cotton's name mean if they didn't know what cotton was?

Well Shire names are "translated" and cotton was to pun with gamgee (for the encased cotton wool dressing Gamgee tissue) but maybe Alfirin's truly fascinating post explains that I was simply wrong about cotton.

The breadth and depth of knowledge round here never ceases to amaze me.

It may also be that in a relatively small and isolated community of the Shire it made sense to keep track of families so as to discourage too close intermarriage. Obviously they wouldnt' have known about genetics and I am not suggesting that but they may have observed problems when there was too much shared blood. I am not suggesting that they went in for hispanic Hapsburg style inbreeding but in small static communities the gene pool could get a bit murky.

Morthoron · 09-10-2014, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I don't think Ents would approve much of writing on paper, probably not think it was worth killing trees for... though you can, write on parchment which involves killing animals... maybe they could have used paper made from oliphaunt dung with a clear conscience ( I was givem some elephant dung stationery once).

I believe Peter Jackson writes his scripts on elephant dung stationery.

09-09-2014, 10:58 AM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	I don't think Ents would approve much of writing on paper, probably not think it was worth killing trees for... though you can, write on parchment which involves killing animals... maybe they could have used paper made from oliphaunt dung with a clear conscience ( I was givem some elephant dung stationery once). __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-10-2014, 05:37 PM	#7
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	Actually cotton is an odd one, origin wise. Species were domesticated in the old and new worlds simultaneously. Most cotton TODAY comes from the New World species. But cotton existed in both Africa and Asia for millennia, and was known to the ancients. In fact many authorities on folklore believe that the origin of the mythical animal know as a barometz, or vegetable lamb of Tartary (basically a sheep that grew out of the ground and remained attached to a stalk through it's umbilicus) was the attempt of an ancient Hebrew writer to try and describe cotton, and using a word that could me either "apple" or "sheep" depending on the vowels (which as in modern Hebrew are often not written down) Certainly some bits of the barometz mythology certainly sound like they are talking of cotton (especially the bit about the wool of a barometz being makeable into a fabric equal to the finest wool, but unlike wool, being easily washable without shrinkage). So ME could have had cotton (maybe from the South or East, before the shadow ultimately consumed them.)