Gandalf, Moria, and Arrest

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

If Aragorn's foresight was so strong and well respected, why did Gandalf not take heed? And what happened to Gandalf's own foresight? Aragorn had nothing more than gut feel to guide him to make his eerily accurate prediction.

Seriously? Did anyone heed the Dooms of Mandos the Vala that all came horribly true? Do you think the gift of foresight is constant for every minute of one's day? The gift of foresight is a notable attribute of Elves and the Dunedain, including Aragorn's direct ancestors. It does not mean that such foresight will be heeded, or that every action comes with foresight. Cassandra was cursed with true foresight gone unheeded in classical mythos.

But you see, this is the aspect of your posting that I find insincere. You argue in circles without proper documentation or research, merely opinions -- even questioning the author himself.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Seriously? Did anyone heed the Dooms of Mandos the Vala that all came horribly true? Do you think the gift of foresight is constant for every minute of one's day? The gift of foresight is a notable attribute of Elves and the Dunedain, including Aragorn's direct ancestors. It does not mean that such foresight will be heeded, or that every action comes with foresight. Cassandra was cursed with true foresight gone unheeded in classical mythos.

But you see, this is the aspect of your posting that I find insincere. You argue in circles without proper documentation or research, merely opinions -- even questioning the author himself.

Most of the Company members showed some degree of foresight, in that they all feared the darkness of Moria, and wanted no part of it. Gandalf and Gimli were the exceptions.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Most of the Company members showed some degree of foresight, in that they all feared the darkness of Moria, and wanted no part of it. Gandalf and Gimli were the exceptions.

I'd actually say that Gimli was the only exception. Gandalf still didn't want to go through Moria, he simply decided to do so despite that fear. He wasn't the only one.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

I'd actually say that Gimli was the only exception. Gandalf still didn't want to go through Moria, he simply decided to do so despite that fear. He wasn't the only one.

Was Gandalf actually scared? Cautious and on guard yes, afraid, not so sure. He had been through Moria before, and spoke well of that accomplishment as though it was more than achievable second time round. Aragorn spoke of very evil memories in his visit to the mines, but he did not reveal what he saw.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

I'd actually say that Gimli was the only exception. Gandalf still didn't want to go through Moria, he simply decided to do so despite that fear. He wasn't the only one.

Tolkien said foresight had failed in him as to how the story should unfold after the Company were standing next to Balin's tomb in Moria. He did not pick up the story again for about another 2 years. He needed a way to get rid of Gandalf in order to have him used elsewhere, and not just as the guide for Frodo. I'm not even sure the words of warning from Aragorn before entering Moria were yet fully mapped out by Tolkien in terms of an outcome for Gandalf further down the line. What I do know is he wanted the Company to go through Moria and have Gandalf part ways with them. So Tolkien himself was not going to allow the characters to argue and get worked up so much as to cause mutiny and a break up of the Fellowship prior to entering Moria. Even Boromir was forced to go against his will into Moria thanks to the wolves.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Most of the Company members showed some degree of foresight, in that they all feared the darkness of Moria, and wanted no part of it. Gandalf and Gimli were the exceptions.

What has that got to do with what you were trying to argue about? Again, you are talking in circles. You questioned Aragorn's foresight, and I provided ample characters who at one time or another exhibited true, uncanny and accurate foresight. Also, trepidation or fear does not equal foresight.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

What has that got to do with what you were trying to argue about? Again, you are talking in circles. You questioned Aragorn's foresight, and I provided ample characters who at one time or another exhibited true, uncanny and accurate foresight. Also, trepidation or fear does not equal foresight.

Of course I see that Aragorn showed at least some insight and foresight on Moria, having been in there himself previously. But I don't believe he had a gift for it beyond his Ranger instincts and common sense. The Company feared the darkness of Moria, suggesting that they suspected great evil remained there. A form of low level foresight.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Of course I see that Aragorn showed at least some insight and foresight on Moria, having been in there himself previously.But I don't believe he had a gift for it beyond his Ranger instincts and common sense.

Except that Aragorn's heritage as a descendent of Luthien gives him certain abilities beyond those of the average man. Being as this is middle earth, they are rather understated. But his abilities as a healer, in my opinion, demonstrate some level of true power.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Of course I see that Aragorn showed at least some insight and foresight on Moria, having been in there himself previously, but I don't believe he had a gift for it beyond his Ranger instincts and common sense.

That is an opinion that is unfortunately invalid. You find his foresight uncanny to the point you consider it unbelievable, then you claim that Tolkien himself was in error for portraying him that way. I offer you the fact that the gift of foresight was an ongoing and verifiable attribute throughout all the Ages of Middle-earth, that Tolkien himself mentioned such a gift, and among Aragorn's Dunedain ancestors that attribute was noted.

In future, less opinion more research, thank you.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

That is an opinion that is unfortunately invalid. You find his foresight uncanny to the point you consider it unbelievable, then you claim that Tolkien himself was in error for portraying him that way. I offer you the fact that the gift of foresight was an ongoing and verifiable attribute throughout all the Ages of Middle-earth, that Tolkien himself mentioned such a gift, and among Aragorn's Dunedain ancestors that attribute was noted.

In future, less opinion more research, thank you.

Aragorn incorrectly feared that there was no exit from from the realm of Moria. He also did not fear for his other companions as voicefully (Frodo and Pippin both could have been killed). His foresight had limitations, and I do believe Tolkien was wrong to make it seem like Aragorn singled out and suspected Gandalf as the sole target to fall in Moria.

I did pay tribute to Aragorn's inherited Ranger instincts in my previous post. That, of course, cannot be discounted. I just don't see him being ''gifted'' with foresight to the extent you are implying. Aragorn, but great though a Ranger he may be, he isn't supernatural like Glorfindel, or Gandalf, or Elrond.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Aragorn incorrectly feared that there was no exit from from the realm of Moria. He also did not fear for his other companions as voicefully (Frodo and Pippin both could have been killed). His foresight had limitations, and I do believe Tolkien was wrong to make it seem like Aragorn singled out and suspected Gandalf as the sole target to fall in Moria.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion as a critic of literature; nevertheless, genuine foresight is canon, and noted in people of Aragorn's line and tribe. How does this affect his potential decision to replace Gandalf as leader of the Fellowship and take an alternate route?

[Belegorn]

A few things.

Regarding the staffs of the Istari, if they were intricately linked to a wizard's power, why did Saruman not take Gandalf's staff when he imprisoned him? I do not recall ever seeing a Maia or Vala having the ability to take or diminish the powers of another Maia. Has this been accounted possible in the annals of Arda?

I'm not certain of the idea of the native powers of the Istari being restricted by their embodiment. Rather their embodiment was meant "to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men" [UT; The Istari]. I think they were not to use their powers to have the Children of Eru heed them under duress and to not appear too grand, thus coming in humble bodies, that is, as older men.

Originally Posted by Appendix B: The Third Age

they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear.

Originally Posted by UT; The Istari

their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advice and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavor to dominate and corrupt.

@ Moon yes they feared Moria and Boromir did not wish to go to Lothlórien either.

Your 2nd quote by Aragorn again does not sound like his concern was specifically a death sentence.

"I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!" [FotR; A Journey in the Dark]

"Did I not say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware? Alas that I spoke true!" [FotR; Lothlórien]

What was it he was speaking of when he said beware? Was it "imminent death" or something else which just happened to lead to it?

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

A few things.

Regarding the staffs of the Istari, if they were intricately linked to a wizard's power, why did Saruman not take Gandalf's staff when he imprisoned him? I do not recall ever seeing a Maia or Vala having the ability to take or diminish the powers of another Maia. Has this been accounted possible in the annals of Arda?

I'm not certain of the idea of the native powers of the Istari being restricted by their embodiment. Rather their embodiment was meant "to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men" [UT; The Istari]. I think they were not to use their powers to have the Children of Eru heed them under duress and to not appear too grand, thus coming in humble bodies, that is, as older men.





@ Moon yes they feared Moria and Boromir did not wish to go to Lothlórien either.

Your 2nd quote by Aragorn again does not sound like his concern was specifically a death sentence.

"I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!" [FotR; A Journey in the Dark]

"Did I not say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware? Alas that I spoke true!" [FotR; Lothlórien]

What was it he was speaking of when he said beware? Was it "imminent death" or something else which just happened to lead to it?

I think it is fair to say Aragorn feared for the fate of Gandalf for the worst if they entered Moria. Otherwise he would not have made such a meal of warning him as the strongest of the Company especially. Depends what you make of ''Beware'' and ''Alas that I spoke true''. To me it suggests, I fear for your life, and I told you so.

[Belegorn]

There are a couple of seers I know of. Malbeth The Seer and Tar-Palantir, the 24th King of Númenor were such. Malbeth has two prophecies I know of, one concerning Arvedui and the fate of the Northern Dúnedain, and the 2nd concerning Aragorn. These are instances of foresight among the Dúnedain, namely seers. There is also an instance of the Lossoth concerning Arvedui.

Originally Posted by Appendix A: The North-kingdom and the Dúnedain

the counsel of the Lossoth was good, by chance or by foresight... So perished Arvedui

Also Aragorn's mother "had in a measure the foresight of her people" [Appendix A].

I'd suggest you take a look at that article by Tolkien I put a link to.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

A few things.

Regarding the staffs of the Istari, if they were intricately linked to a wizard's power, why did Saruman not take Gandalf's staff when he imprisoned him?

A good question; an equally good question is why Gandalf the White was reluctant to surrender his staff in Edoras when asked to do so on Grima's orders. Perhaps Grima was merely acting on folklore describing the power of a wizard's staff, or perhaps he had insider's knowledge from his service with Saruman.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

AI do not recall ever seeing a Maia or Vala having the ability to take or diminish the powers of another Maia. Has this been accounted possible in the annals of Arda?

Not explicitly that I recall, but Gandalf the White certainly did something to Saruman. He seemed fairly diminished after being cast out of the Order. But, yes, I admit it is entirely a personal interpretation.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I'm not certain of the idea of the native powers of the Istari being restricted by their embodiment. Rather their embodiment was meant "to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men" [UT; The Istari]. I think they were not to use their powers to have the Children of Eru heed them under duress and to not appear too grand, thus coming in humble bodies, that is, as older men.

Once again, this is personal interpretation based on my reading between the lines here. I am convinced that they were not simply forbidden to use their full power, but that their full power was unavailable to them. If their restraint relied solely upon ther compliance with the dictates of ther mission, Saruman would have been a much more dangerous enemy, and I think would have demonstrated more power than he did. One or two full exercises of his Maiarin strength would have gone a long way toward making him a more credible threat in Middle-earth.