Farmer Maggot's Dogs

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Ummm....the word "understatement" would, in this case, be an understatement. I cannot begin to construe how profoundly you have misjudged the Nazgul. This dialogue just keeps getting stranger.

I was, of course, generalising. And I am broadly correct in what I said. The Nazgul that Maggot met was indeed once an ordinary man (a king) turned wraith, a transition brought about by being consumed to evil by one of the Nine Rings of Power given to him by Sauron. Obviously a Nazgul would have other powers to protect him, with the power of Sauron being in him. Nevertheless I don't see a Nazgul elevated to the level of a ''supernatural'' being as with Sauron.

[Morthoron]

You have profoundly misjudged the Nazgul, and the entire discussion thus far certainly has an air of absurdity.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I was, of course, generalising. And I am broadly correct in what I said. The Nazgul that Maggot met was indeed once an ordinary man (a king) turned wraith, a transition brought about by being consumed to evil by one of the Nine Rings of Power given to him by Sauron. Obviously a Nazgul would have other powers to protect him, with the power of Sauron being in him. Nevertheless I don't see a Nazgul elevated to the level of a ''supernatural'' being as with Sauron.

The Nazgul had, by the time of the War of the Ring, existed for thousands of years. They were men of power before they succumbed to the lure of the Rings -- sorcerors, warriors and kings -- and invested with Rings of Power, their innate abilities were enhanced to the point that the WitchKing destroyed the Northern Numenorean kingdoms, and felt inherently powerful enough to challenge Gandalf himself (whether he was, in fact, powerful enough is improbable but never proven). If that isn't supernatural enough for you, I would suggest you look up the definition of said word.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

You have profoundly misjudged the Nazgul, and the entire discussion thus far certainly has an air of absurdity.

The Nazgul had, by the time of the War of the Ring, existed for thousands of years. They were men of power before they succumbed to the lure of the Rings -- sorcerors, warriors and kings -- and invested with Rings of Power, their innate abilities were enhanced to the point that the WitchKing destroyed the Northern Numenorean kingdoms, and felt inherently powerful enough to challenge Gandalf himself (whether he was, in fact, powerful enough is improbable but never proven).

The Nazgul that Maggot met was the only one I was discussing, I believe, not the Witch-king. The term ''supernatural'' is better reserved for creatures of a far higher stature in the world of Middle Earth, such as Sauron, the Balrog, and the Istari. A Nazgul is powerful, however, but not in this company, and not even in the company of Aragorn or any creature that does not fear a Nazgul. I therefore classify a Nazgul as an evil power that is governed and fuelled by the supernatural power of Sauron, and not more.

The original thread was about Farmer Maggot and his dogs, and his right to defend his land in an appropriate fashion. The appearance of a Nazgul completely altered his stance and his guard, to the peril of all trespassers.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

The original thread was about Farmer Maggot and his dogs, and his right to defend his land in an appropriate fashion. The appearance of a Nazgul completely altered his stance and his guard, to the peril of all trespassers.

Your idea of "appropriate fashion" is revisionist to be sure. Farmers/landowners have been chasing trespassers off their lands with dogs for millenia. This does not make them or the dogs "vicious", nor does it necessitate maiming or death. That Maggot was more on guard after the incident with the Nazgul is only natural, and also the increased wariness regarding the influx of brigands who were to become "Sharkey's men". Danger was imminent in the Shire at that time, and Maggot was a no nonsense sort of fellow. However, Maggot was as wise as he was wary, and he would certainly handle Sharkey's Men in a different manner and more harshly than a couple Hobbit boys stealing corn or cabbages (and it was obvious Maggot knew of Hobbit boys' thieving ways).

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Your idea of "appropriate fashion" is revisionist to be sure. Farmers/landowners have been chasing trespassers off their lands with dogs for millenia.

This is Middle Earth, not the UK or any other civilised nation with laws to protect farmers and the public alike.

Maggot was in a foul and shaken mood after the encounter with the Nazgul (not too many of these have been seen in England), and he upped his security stance to the highest level when he said to Merry he nearly set his dogs on the trespassing Frodo and company. The Nazgul was seen as the last straw, as though Maggot had encountered many other trespassers before (Frodo was one of them, but some years go). It is not known whether the dogs would have been used to merely chase trespassers off from then on, if indeed that was all Maggot trained them for. If the trespasser presented any retaliation, then the guard dogs would of course attack without hesitation.

Ultimately, I think Maggot would not have used his dogs to kill anyone or anything, not unless he could clearly see it was life vs death situation. The encounter with the Nazgul may have just made him extra paranoid and anxious, and angry almost to breaking point. He suspected the Nazgul would return, and was not far away.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

This is Middle Earth, not the UK or any other civilised nation with laws to protect farmers and the public alike.

You do realize what you said on the other thread about Aragorn arresting Gandalf? I'm not sure how you can say this here to other posters after you implemented laws of our world into M-E.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

You do realize what you said on the other thread about Aragorn arresting Gandalf? I'm not sure how you can say this here to other posters after you implemented laws of our world into M-E.

I believe I said I was not saying Middle Earth had a widespread legal system with lawyers. Rohan and Gondor did have formal laws, however. And stealing the One Ring is a major crime, in any world. That is a different thread, little point trying to merge it with Maggot and his dogs.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

This is Middle Earth, not the UK or any other civilised nation with laws to protect farmers and the public alike.

I would suggest reading further regarding Tolkien's intentions for the Shire. The Shire, according to Tolkien, was indeed England, or at least the long gone England of his youth. There is every reason to believe that Farmer Maggot was a cantankerous but wise rustic fellow that Tolkien met during his time in Oxfordshire (and perhaps chased him out of his fields -- something that occurred to me once in a farmer's cornfield). Other Hobbits were certainly modeled after folks Tolkien knew or were at least architypical of rustics Tolkien recalled from his youth.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I believe I said I was not saying Middle Earth had a widespread legal system with lawyers. Rohan and Gondor did have formal laws, however. And stealing the One Ring is a major crime, in any world. That is a different thread, little point trying to merge it with Maggot and his dogs.

There is no textual evidence that there were any "lawyers" in either Rohan or Gondor. However, and quite amusingly, there is every indication that Messrs. Grubb, Grubb and Burrowes, the firm that oversaw Bilbo Baggins' estate auction, were indeed attorneys-at-law. The Shire was quite anachronistic with its post office, wills and umbrellas.

[Nerwen]

Let's break this down a bit.

1. "Supernatural". Look Moonraker, you are free to use words in the way you prefer, but please don't "correct" me for not following suit. I employed the word in accordance with both the dictionary and common usage, and will continue to do so.

Originally Posted by the Concise Oxford Dictionary

supernatural adj. attributed to or thought to reveal some force above the laws of nature; magical, occult, mystical.

As you see, it's a very broad term. In the specific context of Middle-earth, I'd have far more reservations about using it to describe, say, Elven "magic" than anything to do with Sauron or his minions.

1. a. What's the point of this, anyway? Earlier you were arguing that Farmer Maggot was being very foolish in even considering his dogs could handle such a formidable supernatural being. Now apparently Khamul's just some old bloke in a sheet, and Maggot's at fault for overreacting. I mean come on, at least make up your mind!

[Inziladun]

This may be only semi-relevant, but in early drafts of FOTR Maggot was considered by Tolkien to be something of a kindred spirit of Tom Bombadil, and wasn't a true hobbit. Some of that may have survived in the way he dealt with the Ringwraith, having the sense that it was not a mere specimen of the "big people", as supposed by others in the Shire.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

This may be only semi-relevant, but in early drafts of FOTR Maggot was considered by Tolkien to be something of a kindred spirit of Tom Bombadil, and wasn't a true hobbit. Some of that may have survived in the way he dealt with the Ringwraith, having the sense that it was not a mere specimen of the "big people", as supposed by others in the Shire.

This is what I implied earlier, but I felt Maggot had learned much lore from his friendship with Bombadil so as to indirectly somehow deal with the Nazgul effectively, and without too much fear.

[Legolas]

I have taken the liberty of cleaning up the posts above. I suggest a friendlier tone going forward.

If you reach an impasse, just move on. There's plenty to talk about!

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Legolas

I have taken the liberty of cleaning up the posts above. I suggest a friendlier tone going forward.

If you reach an impasse, just move on. There's plenty to talk about!

Do you believe Maggot was justified in his threat to set his dogs unmercifully on trespassers, as he implied to Merry? A farmer will have his way in his own farm, I guess.

[Legolas]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Do you believe Maggot was justified in his threat to set his dogs unmercifully on trespassers, as he implied to Merry? A farmer will have his way in his own farm, I guess.

Living in a rural area myself, I know almost everyone around and everyone knows me. We all know what belongs to whom, etc.

I suspect the Shire was much the same. Everyone knew everyone's business, which nearly drove Bilbo mad once he began adventuring. Furthermore, a farm is a clear and obvious piece of property, and almost every bit is covered in his product - animals, crops, etc. In a way, when you walk onto his farm, you are walking into his warehouse - and just so happens his family lives there too.

Any harmless passerby, even a hobbit that didn't know Maggot, would (should) have the courtesy to approach properly, right down a main path to the farmer's door. You did say 'without leave' - implying that he could grant leave. I don't think he meant to have no visitors whatsoever. He lived on the border, near scarier lands, so had every right to look out for himself.