Sauron Wins...Then What?

[Yregwyn]

Originally Posted by Lotrelf

Gandalf was not the only one fighting Sauron. Aragorn and thousand of men were fighting there as well. Gandalf worked as a catalyst for them all. A thread who wouldn't let anyone get broken or give up. No one could fail untill Frodo failed himself. Sauron's world turned upside down because of Aragorn. Gandalf motivated them all. Frodo carried the Ring. This is how the Ring was destroyed. Not by one man. So Gandalf failing in his mission is not plausible here.

No, the Ring was trying its best to go back to Sauron. By the time Frodo reached Shelob's Lair the Ring was already powerful. Not even Gollum could hide the Ring anywhere. Not in the mountains. Nowhere.

Why would they flee to the West? They are given the responsibility. It won't be morally good either. Though it is plain that none of them would have fled anywhere. Sauron would become stronger, but Gandalf was as powerful. Who knows Valar would intervened directly! Or perhaps they'd have to wait for another age to see Sauron's fall.
And the rest Mortals would have died. Only immortals would come to a tragic end

Sauron would have be about to destroy everything beyond redress for the Valar to intervene again. The two times that they did they, 1st destroyed Utumo and moved continents and all kinds of crazyness happend in the process. Then the 2nd time they destroyed Angband and sank Beleriand. They were afraid to intervene hince the Istari and Glorfindel. So it would have to be really hopeless for them to do anything much more then what they had already done.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Yregwyn

Sauron would have be about to destroy everything beyond redress for the Valar to intervene again. The two times that they did they, 1st destroyed Utumo and moved continents and all kinds of crazyness happend in the process. Then the 2nd time they destroyed Angband and sank Beleriand. They were afraid to intervene hince the Istari and Glorfindel. So it would have to be really hopeless for them to do anything much more then what they had already done.

It is entirely possible that the impact Sauron's domination of the Younger Children would have exactly qualified as destroying everything beyond redress...personally I think that is the case, although I don't see them embarking on another War of Wrath.

I'm not sure what I see them doing, but I think they would have to do something.

[Nikkolas]

It depends on what you mean by "destroy." Sauron was interested in commanding everything, not burning it to the ground. Forests might all be used to fuel the fires of Mordor and other beautiful pieces of nature ravaged for the sake of his needs but consider the fate of everyone in the East who apparently served him. They were all living fine and dandy under his rule for long stretches of time.

Sauron just isn't the mass slaughter type. Recall what is said of him iNnThe Silmarillion in the Second Age - that EVERY creature upon Middle-earth save Elves marched in his host. If nothing else, Sauron is content to let things live and maybe even thrive so long as they live and thrive under his rule.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I think the truly sad answer to the question is that to the minds of many (Tolkien and myself included) Sauron did win and is now very much in the process of laying waste to the Earth in the pursuit of selfishness and self-aggrandizement at the expense of the living world and all of its peoples. The fact that the Dark Lord is working this destruction through his lesser avatars doesn't undo the completeness of his victory.

That having been said, there are also many (Tolkien and myself included) who believe that where there is life, there is always hope.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

I think the truly sad answer to the question is that to the minds of many (Tolkien and myself included) Sauron did win and is now very much in the process of laying waste to the Earth in the pursuit of selfishness and self-aggrandizement at the expense of the living world and all of its peoples. The fact that the Dark Lord is working this destruction through his lesser avatars doesn't undo the completeness of his victory.

That having been said, there are also many (Tolkien and myself included) who believe that where there is life, there is always hope.

Well, Gandalf made the point that Sauron was but an "emissary" of evil, and that other evils may come. The seed planted by Morgoth and carried on by Sauron could not be utterly eradicated.

The point of Gandalf's struggle though was to do all that he could, with what he had at that time to destroy Sauron. And the evil remaining afterward would simply have to be dealt with by Aragorn and his descendants. If Sauron had either regained the Ring or conquered the West militarily, he would have been able to greatly prolong his time in Middle-earth, and do much more damage to the lands and the spirit of those opposed to him. Taking Sauron out at least gave the West more of a chance to stand against evil, without having an incarnate, immortal representative of it personally leading its advancement.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Nikkolas

It depends on what you mean by "destroy." Sauron was interested in commanding everything, not burning it to the ground. Forests might all be used to fuel the fires of Mordor and other beautiful pieces of nature ravaged for the sake of his needs but consider the fate of everyone in the East who apparently served him. They were all living fine and dandy under his rule for long stretches of time.

Sauron just isn't the mass slaughter type. Recall what is said of him iNnThe Silmarillion in the Second Age - that EVERY creature upon Middle-earth save Elves marched in his host. If nothing else, Sauron is content to let things live and maybe even thrive so long as they live and thrive under his rule.

In this context destroy does not necessarily mean slaughter.

I envision that the corruption and degradation that Sauron's domination would inflict on the souls of humanity would be destruction enough to cause the Valar to do something.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Originally posted by Kuruharan
I've had a notion knocking around in my head for the past two days that Tolkien in his letters addressed this somewhere, that if Sauron had triumphed at the end of the Third Age that he would not have been left alone to rule over Middle earth forever, that either the Valar or Eru himself would have intervened to topple him in one way or another.

Correct. It's Tolkien's way of allowing for both free will and Iluvatar not allowing a permanent triumphing of evil.

But the eventual defeat of Sauron is actually presaged in Eru's chding of Melkor in the Aunulindale when Melkor tried to take over and dominate the Music of the Ainur
:

Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shall see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music to my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but my instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

[denethorthefirst]

Even if Sauron somehow conquered the northwest of middle earth he still wouldnt control the whole of Arda: he still has to invade the new continents that arose after the downfall of numenor (the Americas I presume), Afrika and the Far East. But even if he achieved total domination, I don't think the Valar would intervene. Somehow, somewhere (maybe after a little "divine Inspiration") there would be an uprising against his rule ...
But IF the Valar decided to attack him I don't think that war would be as catastrophic and world-changing as the earlier wars between the Valar and Melkor (the primeval conflicts, the battle of powers after the awakening of the elves and finally the war of wrath). These conflicts were so destructive because of the power involved and the power that was needed to dislodge Melkor. If the Valar invaded a Sauron-dominated Middle-earth the ensuing conflict would be far less supernatural and more like a conventional human war: an army of maybe 50 000 Vanyar and Noldor led by a dozen Maia officers would suffice and the ensuing destruction would be local (some destroyed towns and a burned forest or two).

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

Even if Sauron somehow conquered the northwest of middle earth he still wouldnt control the whole of Arda: he still has to invade the new continents that arose after the downfall of numenor (the Americas I presume), Afrika and the Far East.

Well he already controlled Harad and Rhûn which were more or less the Middle-earth equivalents of Africa and Asia. As for the "Americas" or New Lands, well if they have any relationship to the original Eastern Continent there may not have been any people there to rule at all at that point.
"In the East beyond the tumbled lands there is a silent beach and a dark and empty sea."
So Sauron may not have been too fussed about that I imagine.

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

But IF the Valar decided to attack him I don't think that war would be as catastrophic and world-changing as the earlier wars between the Valar and Melkor

The threat may have been Sauron's love of the "scorched earth policy" coupled with the descent into Morgothian nihilism which we are told had come to afflict him as time wore on - maybe he would have elected to destroy as much of his own lands and slaves as possible before defeat became unavoidable.
On the other hand, if the whole of Middle-earth was under his sway, it's possible that the kinds of armies he could have mustered would have been so vast and so deeply under the shadow that a host of the Valar would be forced to slay thousands upon thousands of them, and maybe it was that kind of near-genocide that the Valar would have needed to try to avoid.

It's an odd question though, isn't it? I mean, surely someone would have intervened? But that's why I think the events of The Lord of the Rings could almost be considered to be something like "damage control" on the part of the Wise.

A final point which comes to mind is the possibility that the nihilistic "lust for destruction" would have eventually torn Sauron's empire apart - people may have risen up against him or his servants may have turned on each other. At the end of the day, though, I suppose it all still hinges on the Ring being destroyed.