Valar and Maia abilities?

[Ivriniel]

@Zigur

Arda healed is, in this casting, compared to Arda unmarred is a good analogy. But is not quite the analogy, because in The Second Making, there is an expected reorganisation of The Powers, in a very fundamental sense, to prevent repetition of vulnerabilities the powers built into reality.

To elucidate, it's not "Manwe versus Melkor", in a divisionist casting of 'good and evil', but instead Manwe (The Flame Imperishable) conjoined to Melkor (The Flame Imperishable running in its Inverse--UNcreation--deadlock.

They have to establish means of satisfying seemingly opposed goals. The paradoxical joining of the two requires that seeming opposites coexist in reconciliation of opposites in all expressions of creation. I do not believe that simply 'teaching' Melkor how to 'behave' would ever be fruitful.

One way around the problem is have Melkor existing in a conjoined Universe where time always runs backwards. So, all his marring runs backwards--from the end of time to its beginning. And so, Manwe and Melkor handball each others manifestations in inverse time flow.

Another way around the problem is to establish creations where what is selflessness to one Vala *is* selfishness to the other. For example, the greed of a baby is what is behind the suckling of its mother's breast, but to the mother, her baby's healthy feeding greed is an expression of her love.....

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Arda healed is, in this casting, compared to Arda unmarred is a good analogy. But is not quite the analogy, because in The Second Making, there is an expected reorganisation of The Powers, in a very fundamental sense, to prevent repetition of vulnerabilities the powers built into reality.

According to whom, exactly? Or is this a theory of your own invention? Evil originated with Melkor. In a world in which Eru has incorporated the evil of Melkor to produce greater good, what likelihood is there of repetition? There is no more evil. It has become good.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

To elucidate, it's not "Manwe versus Melkor", in a divisionist casting of 'good and evil', but instead Manwe (The Flame Imperishable) conjoined to Melkor (The Flame Imperishable running in its Inverse--UNcreation--deadlock.

I don't think this dualistic interpretation is very consistent with the established understanding of Good and Evil according to Professor Tolkien's account. Melkor wanted to destroy, but he was not an "uncreative" force by nature or power. He was originally an initiator and later merely a corruptive force, and it was not within his power to even annihilate matter: "even left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was levelled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defeated, because it would still have 'existed' independent of his own mind, and a world in potential." Good and evil were not "equal and opposite" Newtonian forces in Arda or something like that.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

One way around the problem is have Melkor existing in a conjoined Universe where time always runs backwards. So, all his marring runs backwards--from the end of time to its beginning. And so, Manwe and Melkor handball each others manifestations in inverse time flow.

I also don't find this scenario to be especially likely. For reasons I've already stated, I don't think Melkor ever existed in the way you describe, either in the mind of Eru or as an evil being.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Another way around the problem is to establish creations where what is selflessness to one Vala *is* selfishness to the other.

I don't believe this kind of moral reversibility is consistent with Professor Tolkien's view. According to Professor Tolkien's metaphysics, if Melkor believed the Valar were evil, then he was wrong. He was evil.

I am not just making up "Arda Healed" incidentally, it's actually a concept explained in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth. I assume we can perceive Finrod's understanding of the matter to be reasonably reliable. I apologise if any of what I am saying is not strictly relevant but I'm finding this theory of yours quite difficult to understand and am struggling to see much substantiation for it in the texts.

[Ivriniel]

It's not all about Professor Tolkien's view as it was captured to that critical point when he died. There is more to this than meets the eye. In part, it's also about where the imagination roams when one reviews the mythology and looks at Arda as the meandering river of wishful thinking takes you--'what would it have taken for the Two Trees to have survived" "why couldn't they figure out how to work with Melkor". Having said that--consider what my work does extend--and where speculation does have a place, and what we cannot know, is what principles of care would go into the Second Making.

The Second Prophesy of Mandos hints at a number of ideas.. We know from Tolkien's divisionist thinking in how he bifurcated good and evil that there were numerous points of great suffering in Arda caused by Melkorian and Sauronic thinking. Sauron's Necromancy (and how he made Spiritual Planes of unlife, death, fear an life-bleeding) are, I would expect, rents in reality fabric that would be attended to in the Second Making.

My adaptation of the terms unsight, unlife and so on, are just extensions of what Tolkien did do so prolifically. Ungoliant's unlight (was not just darkness). Feanor and Galadriel as unfriends. Ungoliant is another tantalising hint at what rents in reality and metaphysical planes Melkor's monsters made. Unlight was some kind of syphoning of light, or some kind of event horizon where things were, once drawn into, were lost for all of time. Presumably, for example, Ungoliant swelled from the gobbling up of the Light of Teleperion and Laurelin and that she holds or houses something in that bottomless well waiting to be -- inversely manifested and flushed right on out. To put this another way, if an inverse of a 'good' thing is an 'evil' thing, then what's an inverse of an already inverted, perverted thing? Presumably, there is a way, from Eru's point of view, of applying an inverse to Ungoliant's Unlight.

Presumably, much as at The End of Time (Second Prophesy stuff) where all things 'lost to the end of time' are kept, stored, or wherever they 'go', as that applied to things of The Flame Imperishable, equally, unlight has some kind of role in any reformulation--in a repair or revision of Arda's fabric.

We will never know, I suppose, what the evolution of the mythology would have entailed.

[Ivriniel]

...about Evil as a singularity, I don't think that is possible without splitting the mind in two in the Tolkien Universe. So, in my earlier posts, I hint at the moral culpability of the Valar, by their refusal to see the shadow side of their own creations. This was what I termed the inadvertent evil that is borne of a basking in one's own beauty, truth and creations, without heed for how such things look to their shadow side (with unsight). Melkor, in his great and overt Vanity, is then a Vanity Mirror for the Valar, who denied (and did not resolve) their own Vanity in so much of their creations, but to their great peril. Humility resolves Vanity. Only Nienna had that.

As such, Melkor, as initiator (in a revised role of the context of 'initiator') unmakes his bretheren's creations enough times such that the Valar do, indeed, grow aware of their fallibility, and Vanity. So, Melkor does have an important place in Arda, and I suspect Eru knew this--the Second Great Music and then the Third Theme. I believe Eru placed Melkor into Creation knowing what he was going to do. Nienna, the perpetually weeping Maia who spared no tears for any part of creation, looks to Middle Earth, and she, alone of them all, has sufficient humility to sit with the marring of Arda and grieve for it.

The rest of the Valar, to be honest, do remain fairly much entrenched in denial. Shifting them to compassion is pretty difficult and takes a tumultuous event. They, in the end, are bound to their own fates, and know that any further tampering with reality would achieve naught. For, they never solved the problem of evil, and how to manifest a creation without embedding their creations, inadvertently, with great vulnerabilities implicit in Arda's reality fabric. Elves--Orcs (beings that are bodily antithetical), Elves--Nazgul (spiritually antithetical as life and unlife), The Three Rings (Extending the Flame Imperishable, just to extend the Unlife of the Wraith Realm, by proportion).

A repair in the Second Making would apply what I term a greed-dead-lock to protect a creation....

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

The rest of the Valar, to be honest, do remain fairly much entrenched in denial. Shifting them to compassion is pretty difficult and takes a tumultuous event.

Is this true? Manwë may have been capable of believing that Melkor was rehabilitated, but "Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by." Now in Tulkas' case this may have derived from sheer mistrust, but Ulmo specifically was "not deceived" - but mighty as he was (and he was mighty indeed among the Valar, second only to the Elder King himself among the male Valar) he had to obey the judgement of Manwë "for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel."
I actually wanted to talk about Ulmo, because he seems to be quite compassionate, giving advice to Turgon and Tuor. He was also the leader of those Valar who counselled against the Eldar being brought (or rather invited) to Aman - and he definitely had a point there.
Incidentally, Manwë was not blind. As is stated in Morgoth's Ring (and I quoted in a recent thread) he knew that letting the Noldor fight Morgoth would cause Morgoth to waste his power until he was weakened to the point where he could be dealt with in a way that would not risk the destruction of Arda. The Valar did not lack compassion - they actually avoided fighting Melkor because that was the lesser of two evils: wait, and allow Melkor to become manageable, or go to battle, and risk Arda being destroyed and the death of all Eru's children.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

they never solved the problem of evil, and how to manifest a creation without embedding their creations, inadvertently, with great vulnerabilities implicit in Arda's reality fabric

But the Valar were not "creators", only "makers" - they had no control over the Flame Imperishable - and since everything in Arda had a Morgoth-element they had no choice but to work within those limits. Also, they could not "solve" the problem of evil for two reasons: 1) because they lacked the power to do so (not because they were too incompetent) and 2) because Eru had already solved it: "Arda Healed," which would arrive in the fullness of time. Professor Tolkien observes that "no created thng or being in Arda, or in all Eä, was powerful enough to counteract or heal Evil: that is to subdue Melkor (in his present person, reduced though that was) and the Evil that he had dissipated and sent out from himself into the very structure of the world. Only Eru himself cold do this."

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I believe Eru placed Melkor into Creation knowing what he was going to do. Nienna, the perpetually weeping Maia who spared no tears for any part of creation, looks to Middle Earth, and she, alone of them all, has sufficient humility to sit with the marring of Arda and grieve for it.

Eru permitted Melkor into creation, but I do not believe he placed him there with the intention of having Melkor commit evil even with the belief that it would bring about good. I believe Eru gave him the choice. He reconciles the evil, but I don't think he intentionally enables it. Regarding Nienna (who is a Vala, by the way, not a Maia) her tears are compassionate yes, but isn't the message of so much of Professor Tolkien's work that we should do what we can against evil without the expectation of managing to completely overcome it? This was of course something the Valar had to learn, and is the attitude embodied in Gandalf, who learned compassion from Nienna.

My point is I think the Evil of Melkor could be, and was, reconciled to Eä in order to improve it, but I don't believe it was part of a necessary dynamism of metaphysical forces, at least not in this dualistic way. Your theories are interesting but I think they're largely precluded by a lot of the content of Morgoth's Ring which I heartily recommend reading in full for a more complete understanding of Professor Tolkien's theodicy (the technical term for answering the problem of evil).

[Ivriniel]

The rest of the Valar, to be honest, do remain fairly much entrenched in denial. Shifting them to compassion is pretty difficult and takes a tumultuous event.

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Is this true? Manwë may have been capable of believing that Melkor was rehabilitated, but "Ulmo was not deceived, and Tulkas clenched his hands whenever he saw Melkor his foe go by." Now in Tulkas' case this may have derived from sheer mistrust, but Ulmo specifically was "not deceived" - but mighty as he was (and he was mighty indeed among the Valar, second only to the Elder King himself among the male Valar) he had to obey the judgement of Manwë "for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel."

When I wrote my categorical statement, I had a feeling it would be tackled (rightly so) for being too absolute. Of course, there are indications of the opposite of what I'm positing, where I rank them an 'in denial' on a spectrum of relative blindness.

But, the denial I write about is about the blindness to their own Vanity. Tulkas's rage, and Ulmo's antipathy are precisely two examples of the critical indications of denial I point out. E.g. Methinks he doth protest too much. The refusal to accept that they were present during the Ainulindale, at which time, Melkor's disharmony and repetitious defiance were promulgated into Eru's orchestrations. Should it not have been entirely clear, before their music was made manifest in Arda in the Vision Illuvatar brought forth, that Melkor's presence was somehow significant. Eru did not send Melkor into Arda from The Void, 'corrected'.

I actually wanted to talk about Ulmo, because he seems to be quite compassionate, giving advice to Turgon and Tuor. He was also the leader of those Valar who counselled against the Eldar being brought (or rather invited) to Aman - and he definitely had a point there.

Yes, Ulmo was more appreciably helpful in The First Age, though his influence retreated (as his power was withdrawn from Rivers and Streams).

No-one much pays much heed to Nienna, though. She is the embodiment of compassion, which is her liberal, perpetual tears, and her Home overlooks Middle Earth, where, from time to time, others of her Kind join her. I do not imagine that she would withhold tears about Melkor, Sauron and all the Fallen, either, and suspect that her wisdom would embody, or extend means of deepening understanding beyond the generalist wisdom where "Melkor as the Vala pinup boi and catchall for the blame game". So, I'm presenting an alternative view to the reductionists' position and the categorical posturing of "Melkor is All Evil and That is Bad". Perhaps Evil serves Illuvatar's final purpose, in time to come, in ways the Valar are not far-seeing enough to discern. Their Vanity and lack of Unsight.

Incidentally, Manwë was not blind. As is stated in Morgoth's Ring (and I quoted in a recent thread) he knew that letting the Noldor fight Morgoth would cause Morgoth to waste his power until he was weakened to the point where he could be dealt with in a way that would not risk the destruction of Arda. The Valar did not lack compassion - they actually avoided fighting Melkor because that was the lesser of two evils: wait, and allow Melkor to become manageable, or go to battle, and risk Arda being destroyed and the death of all Eru's children.

Compassion takes many forms, many of which the Valar deny as legitimate expressions of compassion. That's my first point: for example, avoiding the bringing of Arda to a terminal conclusion and endpoint is (arguably)--extending suffering--and an indulgence for those beings protected and shielded (The Hiding of Valinor), while Mandos prohibits the Firstborn's Return because of an Oath made in wrath. It's just all too unyielding! If The Elves could battle, five times with Morgoth with the limit of the power of Elvendom, and make as much headway as they did, I imagine that a partial fortification of Elvendom during the Noldor's struggle would not have broken Arda.

We also saw the partial deliberate breaking of the Earth with Numenor, when Ar Pharazon and co got swallowed up and holed up in the Caves of the Forgotten until the Last Battle, at which time, the breaking of Arda shall occur, before a Second Making.

Sometimes compassion means ending the existence of that which suffers, because of flaws in the design and making.

[Ivriniel]

But the Valar were not "creators", only "makers" - they had no control over the Flame Imperishable

Not quite true. They could channel the Flame Imperishable into their creations--Telperion, Laurelin, and even the Elves could manifest such 'metaphysical flows'--the Silmarils, the Phial of Galadriel, The Elessar and the Palantiri.

Further, it was Sauronic and Melkorian 'logic' that, I have guessed, manifested the Inverse of the Flame Imperishable--that UNflow of the Flame Imperishable in an inverted, mirror image opposite of the Flame Imperishable. Unlight. The Wraith Dimension. Necromancy. Unlife of the Ringwraiths. Barrow Wights.

If I cast my mind back to the Ainulindale, and our first glimpse of what Illuvatar manifested in the Flame Imperishable, it seems to me that this was some fathoming of a creative purpose, inside a Time-Bound Universe, in accordance with bringing forth something from The Void. I have wondered if Melkor gleaned of means of inverting this essence, by fracturing dimensions of the Spirit World, and then, regiging the system, so that his 'creations' (violations of Manwe-ian manifestations) return something to The Void (life-flow) whilst retaining an echo of sentience. Ringwraiths were not really living, yet had sinew somehow, and they seemed to drain life and somehow 'radiated' fear. Where did their lifeforce actually go? Back to the Void? In Manwe's Halls?

Also, they could not "solve" the problem of evil for two reasons: 1) because they lacked the power to do so (not because they were too incompetent) and 2) because Eru had already solved it: "Arda Healed," which would arrive in the fullness of time.

Here, then, I bring my ideas back to another point. If you are capable of birthing the Sun, what insight do you lack, that you can't fathom Ungoliant's 'organisation' and use a collective effort (I mean, the Valar Combined had a great deal more power than Melkor) to 'flick the UNlight switch' and get her to EXPLODE, rather than SYPHON.

She did have a very fat, bulbous, belly - and it swelled I recall, after eating the light of the Two Trees.

My point is I think the Evil of Melkor could be, and was, reconciled to Eä in order to improve it, but I don't believe it was part of a necessary dynamism [emphasis Ivriniel's] of metaphysical forces, at least not in this dualistic way. Your theories are interesting but I think they're largely precluded by a lot of the content of Morgoth's Ring which I heartily recommend reading in full for a more complete understanding of Professor Tolkien's theodicy (the technical term for answering the problem of evil).

Here, I don't need to rely on the word 'necessary' either. Creation is merely a manifestation of a being's purpose or drive or Song of Creation. So, I do see dynamism of metaphysical forces (and that's a really fantastic way to put it). Dynamism as the interplay of energy (the Flame Imperishable) with metaphysical dimensions conceived by beings on either side of the Good/Evil dualist position. Birthed from the Dynamism--tools for readying Arda for its next majestic manifestation. I imagine that there are ways of organising, deliberately, dynamic flow of what? essences? that are expressions of the Flame Imperishable....

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

The refusal to accept that they were present during the Ainulindale, at which time, Melkor's disharmony and repetitious defiance were promulgated into Eru's orchestrations. Should it not have been entirely clear, before their music was made manifest in Arda in the Vision Illuvatar brought forth, that Melkor's presence was somehow significant.

A matter of faith, I suspect. The Valar must have accepted that Eru had a reason for permitting this to come to pass.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

So, I'm presenting an alternative view to the reductionists' position and the categorical posturing of "Melkor is All Evil and That is Bad". Perhaps Evil serves Illuvatar's final purpose, in time to come, in ways the Valar are not far-seeing enough to discern.

I'm going to have to use the word "necessary" again because the way I see it the concept of Arda Healed is evil serving Eru's final purpose without evil being necessary: "thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."
You may consider is reductionist, but the fact is that in Eä Melkor was the only source of evil, and all evil that followed was the influence of his spirit permeated through all matter. That being said, we do receive evidence of inexplicable sufferings, for example:

"among the Eldar, even in Aman, the desire for marriage was not always fulfilled. Love was not always returned; and more than one might desire one other for spouse. Concerning this, the only cause by which sorrow entered the bliss of Aman, the Valar were in doubt. Some held that it came from the marring of Arda, and from the Shadow under which the Eldar awoke; for thence only (they said) comes grief or disorder. Some held that it came of love itself, and of the freedom of each fëa, and was a mystery of the nature of the Children of Eru"

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

That's my first point: for example, avoiding the bringing of Arda to a terminal conclusion and endpoint is (arguably)--extending suffering

I think the issue is here that it wasn't the place of the Valar to decide the ultimate fate of Arda. That was for Eru only. They could have destroyed it, yes, but that would have been defiance of Eru's will. Destroying Arda would only perpetuate the evil of Melkor, not bring about Arda Healed. The destruction of Númenor is a perfect example, in fact. The Valar were not even willing to battle Men in that way, instead relinquishing authority to Eru. It was not their place.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

(I mean, the Valar Combined had a great deal more power than Melkor)

I'm afraid this is contradicted in the text. Melkor was more powerful than all of the other Ainur combined. That was part of his nature: "he must not be able to be controlled or 'chained' by all the Valar combined." (Morgoth's Ring) Now of course Morgoth the person could be subdued. Melkor the Tyrant of Utumno, even, could be subdued. But that is not Melkor. Melkor is, to quote Professor Tolkien, "a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), + his agents." That's why the Valar cannot solve the problem of evil (although they did not need to - Eru had done it for them). Melkor was more powerful than all of them combined, and even when he was personally weakened his evil was still out there. No "eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda."
Moreover "the dilemma of the Valar was this: Arda could only be liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda." So evidently the Valar saw the latter as impermissible. Why? Because their function, and the function of Manwë in particular, was to "govern Arda and make it possible for the Children of Eru to live in it unmolested." They struggled in that role because of the power of Melkor. It was not in their power or authority to destroy Arda and thus make it impossible for the Children to exist, which was the only other means besides "Arda Healed" of stopping Melkor, but not considered to be a valid alternative.

I think the issue might be that you take a somewhat different view of good and evil than that taken by Professor Tolkien and that which is reflected in his texts, because I think your theory only really works if good and evil operate in a somewhat different way than they actually do in Eä. This may or may not be the "true" way they operate in the real world (if it's even meaningful to say so - metaphysics is, arguably, a somewhat outdated discipline in the "real world," as meaningful as it clearly is in Arda) but this is how good and evil operate in Eä and it probably also reflects how Professor Tolkien considered them to operate himself (albeit according to his real-world beliefs, obviously).

Anyone else should feel free to chip in their thoughts here, of course. I fear I'm rambling on excessively, but hopefully this discussion is setting minds in motion regarding a very interesting issue of Professor Tolkien's late writings. Perhaps his philosophical musings did get in the way of him completing The Silmarillion, but that was probably impossible anyway so I'm glad we've got what we've got.