who are the nazgul?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by mhagain

Well my confession is that I always imagined the Witch-king as a Númenórean too, but sometimes it pays to analyze and challenge one's assumptions.

I think circumstantiallly it makes sense for him to be one. Perhaps related to the royal family, a younger son or cousin, with strong ideas about how he could do better but little experience, on his first trip to Middle-earth as part of a tribute expedition. All conjectural fan-fiction.

On the other hand picture a Haradrim warlord, long under the sway of Sauron, steeped in sacrifice and dark sorceries, who's mighty ****ed at these upstart Númenóreans coming over and trying to extract tribute, when along comes opportunity in the shape of a Ring of Power into his possession.


See what I mean? Both are equally valid given what Tolkien wrote.

I do not think they are equal at all. The conjectural evidence still points heavily to a Númenórean rather than a Haradrim in the case of the sorcerous, necromantic WitchKing. As I inferred, there are plenty of textual references regarding Númenórean black magic, black arts and necromancy, or at least implied sorcery; whereas, I cannot find a single instance of black magic or sorcery mentioned among the Haradrim. The Númenóreans were also far longer-lived and physically stronger than other races at that period of the 2nd Age.

If you have any evidence regarding magic use among the Haradrim (or Easterlings, for that matter), please share.

Originally Posted by mhagain

However:

Umbar wasn't founded until after the Nazgul first appeared, so that timeline is all wrong. Also, Angmar was Third Age but the Nazgul appeared in the Second, so I can't see that being a motive. I'd be more inclined to expect the WK to be a corrupted Faithful than a BN in origin too.

Umbar was founded far before the Nazgul appeared, during the colonization period beginning 1800 S.A. (natural harbor and all), but it was not heavily fortified until 2280 S.A.: ("...the strength of his [Sauron's] terror and mastery over men had grown exceedingly great, he began to assail the strong places of the Númenóreans upon the shores of the sea." -- Silmarillion).

As far as I can recollect, Númenórean colonies existed far further south down the coast than Umbar.

As far as the Nazgul Witchking, I suppose I wasn't clear enough. I suspect he was one of the "King's Men", a provincial lord and sorcerer of one of the southern Númenórean territories (perhaps a ruling relative of Tar-Atanamir and Ancalimon); King's Men being the progenitors of the Black Númenórean race.

Yes, this was in the Second Age, and Angmar was Third Age, but I would expect a supernatural King's Man from the 2nd Age to still harbor hatred for the descendants of the Elendili still living in Arnor far more than a man of Harad.

Memories are long in Middle-earth.

EDIT: Another thing regarding Númenórean magical ability comes to mind:

"So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will." -- ROtK

Obviously the Númenóreans and their descendants, both the Arnorions (this smith of Westernesse) and Black Númenóreans (like Beruthiel and MoS), had such capabilities.

[Ivriniel]

Yes, sounds clear here. We have sorcery's black touch in Numenor, and in Khamul of the Easterlings. There's reference to it, even in The Blue Wizards, who went into the East and, in some text references, succumbed to evil in Sorcery.

I haven't read any references to sorcery in the peoples of Harad.

We also know that Umbar was founded in 2280, and I seem to recall that Elros's bloodline made a showing there, at least as a cousin or relative, at some point (my memory is fuzzy about Umbar. It has been over 20 years since I reviewed this stuff).

From 1695 SA (Sauron's attack on the Mirdain) to 1700 SA (Tar Minastir's 'humiliating' defeat of Sauron), we're at 1800. 700 years until Nazgul appear, places us 2500, SA. I don't know how long a Ring took to exert its influence, but 2280 and 2500 is 220 years. I would say, then that this may suggest the 'guy with the grudge against Elros from Numenor'--Witchking--probably came from Numenorean stock before Umbar. There were plenty of Numenorean settlements and Lords of Andunie flexing their muscles in Middle Earth extracting bounty, all along the coast of ME, from South of Lindon, all the way to south of Harad......

Do you think the Ring bearer ever made a presence in Numenor?

[mhagain]

The Tale of Years entry for SA2280 has:

Umbar is made into a great fortress of Númenor.

Of course the Numenoreans could have had strong places by the sea before then.

The conjectural evidence still points heavily to a Númenórean rather than a Haradrim in the case of the sorcerous, necromantic WitchKing

I don't disagree with the conjectural evidence, but consider: the text states that the Witch-king became a sorceror after he recieved the Ring, not that he was one before:

Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old.

It hardly seems relevant whether or not he was from a culture steeped in sorcery before.

Likewise, he hardly needs to be long-lived. Bilbo was almost corrupted in just 60 years and he was a more resilient Hobbit, of good will, and who didn't use the Ring much, and these are the key deciding factors according to Gandalf (see above for the quote). The amount of time you have the Ring for isn't really what's important: Khamul as an Easterling wasn't long-lived either.

Speaking of Khamul, he was likely also a sorceror as a Ringwraith so if true that just serves to underline that prior culture is really unimportant.

As I said before, this is really just arguing the toss. I personally consider it most likely that the Witch-king actually was a Numenorean but it is interesting and informative to deconstruct something taken for granted.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by mhagain

<snip>...I don't disagree with the conjectural evidence, but consider: the text states that the Witch-king became a sorceror after he recieved the Ring, not that he was one before:<snip>

<snip>It hardly seems relevant whether or not he was from a culture steeped in sorcery before.<snip>

We don't really ever find out why the witchy-poo King was a 'witch' and not an ungoliantified, greed vomit--I mean--an Eol Cliff Elf. No, what I'm trying to say is that Turgon's Aredhel ate horse meat in unlight in Valinor. *shakes head*, that's not it either. What I mean is that if the Warlock Queen of Numenor was born, before it was Numenor, then she wouldn't be a she at all. That's really what happened, for a man to be called a Witchking.

We really don't know what 'witch' powers of 'sorcery' the Witchking held. Or whether or not she? studied sorcery, or dabbled, before changing genders. Perhaps Sauron was just having a cosmic joke, and really liked Numenor.

Likewise, he hardly needs to be long-lived. Bilbo was almost corrupted in just 60 years and he was a more resilient Hobbit, of good will, and who didn't use the Ring much, and these are the key deciding factors according to Gandalf (see above for the quote). The amount of time you have the Ring for isn't really what's important: Khamul as an Easterling wasn't long-lived either.

Speaking of Khamul, he was likely also a sorceror as a Ringwraith so if true that just serves to underline that prior culture is really unimportant.

Gollum held The Ring for a very long time. Bilbo, I suspect, would have been several Hobbit lifetimes before succumbing. We don't really know how long a transition took into Wraith form, but more than 60 years seems quite likely. We're told the Rings granted great life extension. Educated guess. Follows on from the fact that it was about 700 years before they appeared in ME after Mr Annatar destroyed Eregion.

As I said before, this is really just arguing the toss. I personally consider it most likely that the Witch-king actually was a Numenorean but it is interesting and informative to deconstruct something taken for granted.

Yup.

[mhagain]

There's more info I was previously unaware of (or had previously passed over - same result) in a plot outline given in the Siege of Gondor chapter in HoME 8:

Gandalf says things are still not so bad - because the W[izard] King has not yet appeared. He reveals that he is a renegade of his own order ... [?from] Numenor.

This is obviously an abandoned concept but otherwise I'm not sure what to make of it. I haven't cross-checked with when the idea of Istari as Maiar first arose, so maybe Tolkien is playing around with different ideas for their origin here? Was the Witch-king viewed as possibly a renegade Istar at the time (yes)? Were the Istari viewed as Numenorean in origin at the time (don't know)? Was the Witch-king at this point viewed as being a separate entity from the Ringwraiths (don't know)?

Either way it seems that the idea of the Witch-king as a Numenorean was something that had always been in Tolkien's mind, even though he never expressed it in published work.

What's interesting is that the original concept for the Mouth of Sauron was that he would be the Witch-king, so the idea of a renegade Numenorean in a high-ranking position in Sauron's service never really went away.

We don't really know how long a transition took into Wraith form, but more than 60 years seems quite likely

I've dealt with this previously but in summary:

• Only 3 of the Ringwraiths were noted to have been Numenorean,
• The other 6 were therefore Haradrim, Easterlings or Edain,
• Khamul, the second in command, is definitely confirmed to have been an Easterling,
• But Haradrim, Easterlings or Edain don't have long life,
• But that doesn't matter because Gandalf's words in Shadow of the Past confirm: it's not how long you have a Ring for that matters, it's how much you use it.

It should be obvious that the "long life" argument is bogus. If the other 6 Ringwraiths don't need to have long life, why should the 3 Numenoreans be a special exception?

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by mhagain

It should be obvious that the "long life" argument is bogus. If the other 6 Ringwraiths don't need to have long life, why should the 3 Numenoreans be a special exception?

I don't think people are saying 'long life implies head of the Nazgul'. Perhaps I haven't made my point clear. I am saying--they [the chosen nine in their mortal origin] can't have too long-a-life, given 700 years from 1695 to first appearance of Nazgul. If it was a line of Elros, (as in undiluted), you're looking at 400 years of normal life, before, 'stretching'. That's only 300 years--not enough, IMO. It was an argument about the 'who' of the bloodline of the Numenorean who would have been the Witchking.

I believe that the longer the life of the individual, the longer to turn Wraith like [unless] they were naturally more evil to start with. As the Gandalf quote implies about native strength and Laurelin Shelobs, an Ungoliant takes more to syphon from the exit end of the spider, to fill the Two Trees.

Make sense?

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

We really don't know what 'witch' powers of 'sorcery' the Witchking held. Or whether or not she? studied sorcery, or dabbled, before changing genders. Perhaps Sauron was just having a cosmic joke, and really liked Numenor.

About the only we one we know of is that the WK does know necromancy, since If I recall, it is the WK who orignally summoned the spirits who became the Barrow Wights.
I also want to make note that it is written that Sauron granted special powers but NOT rings to two chiefs of the Haradrim (presumably, these powers might be similar to those provided to the Mouth of Sauron) which seems to indicate Sauron may have been low to out of rings before coming among the Haradrim, and so there may NOT be Haradrim amoung the Nazgul's numbers. Though there still may, it sort of depends on how unfied the Haradrim are (if the men of the Harads are made up mostly of small fractios tribes, the concept of bestowing rings on lords so great they basically ruled (or with the ring, could rule) the whole area may not have been feasible.) The problem here is, not only do we not know the patrimony of most of the Nazgul, we also are not aware of the criterion Sauron used in selecting worthy candidates. As indicated above, I, tend to work from the assumption of "Distribute the rings in such a manner as to bring the maxium number of men/amount of territory under thier, and therfore my, control". but that is just how I'd do it.