what would possibly exist in the farthest east?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

the technology there would maybe be quite advanced,seeing that they had chariots,which the west NEVER used/invented.

On the contrary, I see the use of chariots by the Easterlings (and elephant cavalry by the Haradrim, incidentally) as evidence that their cultures were primitive, not advanced. Extensive use of chariots was characteristic of pre-Classical cultures like the Egyptians (among many others). The West had steel weapons and mail, advanced architectural techniques, naval technology etc and a generally more early-medieval flavour.

I have always seen the Easterlings' use of chariots as evidence that their development was "held back" by their long history as thralls to the Shadow.

[tom the eldest]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

On the contrary, I see the use of chariots by the Easterlings (and elephant cavalry by the Haradrim, incidentally) as evidence that their cultures were primitive, not advanced. Extensive use of chariots was characteristic of pre-Classical cultures like the Egyptians (among many others). The West had steel weapons and mail, advanced architectural techniques, naval technology etc and a generally more early-medieval flavour.

I have always seen the Easterlings' use of chariots as evidence that their development was "held back" by their long history as thralls to the Shadow.

By "advanced"i mean that very few,if none,of the west's war machine could match the chariots.the cloeset thing that the west have to counter the chariots maybe their very strong horsemen,like rohirrim and dol amroth knights.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

On the contrary, I see the use of chariots by the Easterlings (and elephant cavalry by the Haradrim, incidentally) as evidence that their cultures were primitive, not advanced. Extensive use of chariots was characteristic of pre-Classical cultures like the Egyptians (among many others). The West had steel weapons and mail, advanced architectural techniques, naval technology etc and a generally more early-medieval flavour.

I have always seen the Easterlings' use of chariots as evidence that their development was "held back" by their long history as thralls to the Shadow.

I guess that would be true if the Gondorians had previously been using chariots, and these had become obsolete. However this does not seem to be the case...

It is an interesting question, especially since there can be no doubt that the Kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor was the most technological advanced states in ME at their founding. Arnor disintegrated and Gondor entered something that could be called 'dark ages' where their knowledge waned.

So while other cultures most likely progressed, the Numenorean's regressed.
Would it have been possible for other cultures to overtake them?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I guess that would be true if the Gondorians had previously been using chariots, and these had become obsolete. However this does not seem to be the case...

Does this necessarily follow? The Men of the West certainly used wheeled, horse-drawn vehicles in general. They evidently knew what chariots were by observation even if they didn't use them. I don't see the use of chariots in particular as some kind of 'necessary' step in the technological progress of a society, ie "the Men of the West did not use chariots therefore they were more primitive than the Easterlings."

Frodo himself upon Amon Hen observed the Easterlings as having "swordsmen, spearmen, bowmen upon horses, chariots of chieftains and laden wains" (emphasis mine) which suggests to me that even Easterling chariots were more commonly used for ceremonial purposes and as transportation than as weapons.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

On the contrary, I see the use of chariots by the Easterlings (and elephant cavalry by the Haradrim, incidentally) as evidence that their cultures were primitive, not advanced. Extensive use of chariots was characteristic of pre-Classical cultures like the Egyptians (among many others). The West had steel weapons and mail, advanced architectural techniques, naval technology etc and a generally more early-medieval flavour.

I have always seen the Easterlings' use of chariots as evidence that their development was "held back" by their long history as thralls to the Shadow.

I'm not sure that Elephant cavalry can be considered "primitive" either. It seems to me that were are confusing a lack of tech with a lack of resources. The Haradrim use elephant because they HAVE elephants. The West doesn't so it doesn't. In our world, elephant cavalry has been used by pretty advanced civilizations, The Mugals (and all of the other Indian kingdoms, the Khmer and all of the South east asians. Hannibal (elephants or not, he was a Roman trained general and was generally using Roman level tactics.) As for the steel, mail etc. we don't to my knowledge get a full detailed description of Haradrim arms and armor, they could be comperable. And we never see any of thier cities, so thier archetecture is anybody's guess. Yes, Gondor and Arnor have a sort of late roman/early medival feel, but think of what other civilizations were around during ours, and their level of tech. Plenty of them were at rougly the same level of civilization (if indeed such things can really be quantified) In fact, if you are talking early Medival, the Islamic world would probably be slighty MORE advanced tecnically; while we were dealing with whatever setbacks the Dark Ages gave us, they weren't The crusades certinly had an aful lot of cases of "advanced" Medival Europeans getting thier armored asses handed to them by the "Primitive" Islamic empires, and not all becuase of them being closer or better used to the terrain. If you want to put Gondor and Arnor as early Medival Europe, then the kingdoms of the East we'd be talking about would be things like Imperial China, The kingdoms of India, A Kmer who were busy building Angkor Wat, a Japan that was already starting the Samurai period Mayans in Mesoamerica, Mound Builders in Southeast North America, Anasazi cities in Southwestern America, Chaco and Early Incas in Peru and so on. I'm not actually trying to say that your assertion that the West was more tecnically advanced is wholly incorrect, but it seems to me it has less to do with objective facts and more to do with Tolkien's own Eurocentrism and Anglophilia.

[Galadriel55]

I think that the divide between military development does not signify more/less military advancement, just different types of advancement. Like the crusades were a clash of the lighter but more brittle Muslim forces against the heavier but stronger Western Europeans. And both had wins and both had losses. I think the two tactics or styles are just so different that they are practically incomparable - you can compare specific weapons, maneouvres, mobility, organization, etc., but when put together they seem like to much of a heterogenous mixture to really compare or predict the outcome based on numbers and strength. It seems like militarily speaking, each one has to play out its strengths to the fullest and hope that they are enough to overcome the enemy's strengths.

[tom the eldest]

The easterling do have some military advance.for example,the have an effective anti-cavalry techniques,which is why they were feared by rohirrim and gondor.they also had some advance in agricultural,seeing that most of sauron food were made in rhun,due to the ashes of mount doom make fertile land in rhun.they armour is also pretty different from the west.the west had wing-shaped helmet and iron armour,while the easterling had fearsome dragon-shaped helmet and golden armour.considering that the easterling can make gold into a strong armour,i think that they had some advanced metalurgy techniques.

[mhagain]

"Rhûn" just means "east", so it's more-or-less equivalent to saying "over thataway".

Tolkien never mapped nor fully described the region, but we do know some of what's out there. In the original symmetric design there was a range of mountains to the east, mirroring the Blue Mountains in the west; the Red Mountains (Orocarni), and it may be surmised that these are still there (the west recieved far more damage at the end of the First and Second Ages; the east appears to have been relatively unscathed).

The Mountains of the Wind were towards the east and slightly south too. According to a wiki page they were destroyed in the War of Wrath, but the only evidence I can find that they may no longer exist is the fact that they appear on Ambarkanta map IV but not on map V (and map V still has Beleriand on it so it pre-dates the War of Wrath, meaning that if they were destroyed it was before then).

The Inland Sea of Helcar existed in the east too; according to one theory it shrank (possibly draining into the Bay of Belfalas/Great Gulf) at the end of the First Age, leaving behind Mordor (which by this theory would have been underwater in the First Age!) and the Sea of Rhûn as a remnant. This seems to be based on not much more than a speculation by CT in one of the HoME books (and an attempt to match Ambarkanta map V with the later geography).

However, the Cirdan essay in HoME 12 states that the Teleri lived by the Sea of Rhûn for an extended time during the Great Journey, which seems to me to indicate that they're separate seas.

Beyond that there's a shore, the east sea (narrower than Belegaer) and an eastern continent mirroring Aman.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

The easterling do have some military advance.for example,the have an effective anti-cavalry techniques,which is why they were feared by rohirrim and gondor.

Where does it say that? Besides, the Men of Gondor rarely used cavalry in battle (as opposed to mounted infantry) beyond the Knights of Dol Amroth so I fail to see how that's likely.

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

they also had some advance in agricultural,seeing that most of sauron food were made in rhun,due to the ashes of mount doom make fertile land in rhun.

No, most of Sauron's food was grown in Nurn, the southern and largest part of Mordor, not in Rhûn. Also it was grown by slaves, not specifically by the Easterlings - although I'm more than willing to consider that many of Sauron's slaves probably were Easterlings.

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

they armour is also pretty different from the west.the west had wing-shaped helmet and iron armour,while the easterling had fearsome dragon-shaped helmet and golden armour.considering that the easterling can make gold into a strong armour,i think that they had some advanced metalurgy techniques.

Where is this ever stated? This sounds like an assumption based on the film where they wear gold or bronze covered equipment. Now the Man of Harad who dies in front of Sam, on the other hand, is described as wearing a "golden collar" and a "corslet of overlapping brazen plates" but this is one of the Haradrim, not an Easterling. We don't know much about the equipment of the Easterlings at all, actually, except that some used axes in battle.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Where is this ever stated? This sounds like an assumption based on the film where they wear gold or bronze covered equipment. Now the Man of Harad who dies in front of Sam, on the other hand, is described as wearing a "golden collar" and a "corslet of overlapping brazen plates" but this is one of the Haradrim, not an Easterling. We don't know much about the equipment of the Easterlings at all, actually, except that some used axes in battle.

Even in the movie, I doubt very much whether the Easterlings’ armour is meant to be *made* of gold.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Even in the movie, I doubt very much whether the Easterlings’ armour is meant to be *made* of gold.

Agreed. Gold is a lousy metal to make armor out of; it's very heavy and more importantly, very soft. It might be OK for "parade" (ceremonial or ornamental) armor, but no one with any sense would wear it as protection in actual combat. I can sort of imagine someone wearing gold PLATED armor,for ornament (though unless Harad has a LOT of gold, even that might be stretching things for any but the highest ranking officers.) I can even imagine a few useful effects of this. Since gold doesn't corrode such armor would never need to be polished and would be rust resistant (provided you remembered to patch and holes that weapons made in the plating). But under the plate, it would still be iron, steel or bronze with the reference in the book heavily suggesting bronze as the most likely option (actually the reference says "brazen" which would mean brass, but I've never heard of anyone making armor out of brass, so I think it possible that the plates were bronze and Sam misidentified).