Why save them? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lotrelf · 04-04-2014, 12:24 AM

Tolkien says Frodo wrote the book, and later Sam finished it. Merry, Pippin and the others told them their tales, and this was how the Red Book was written. If, Tolkien had killed Frodo and Sam, who'd have known what happened in their journey! Also, their deaths wouldn't seem like sacrifice, instead they'd be like victims of the Shadow. This way, Sam was there to tell the story, and Frodo's ultimate sacrifice became a noble one.
P.S. I apologise if someone has posted this thought before, I didn't the entire thread.

littlemanpoet · 04-05-2014, 01:59 PM

How did I miss this back in the day?

Anyway, the observations about Frodo being broken war survivor are apt. Somehow this puts me in mind of Tolkien's dream of the great wave, which preceded WWI, so only if dreams can be prophetic would this work: could there be a correlation between the wave and the war?

Inziladun · 04-05-2014, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

Somehow this puts me in mind of Tolkien's dream of the great wave, which preceded WWI, so only if dreams can be prophetic would this work: could there be a correlation between the wave and the war?

In Letters I can find no mention by Tolkien that he had any knowledge of the impetus of his "Atlantis" dream. Curiously, he does note that his son Michael was visited by the same dream, but that M. was the only one of his children so affected.

Jabbawocky Took · 04-21-2014, 03:29 PM

Such an interesting discussion, I've gained many new insights from your posts! Thank you.
I would agree that the ending of LOTR is anything but happy - surviving a traumatic experience is in many ways more severe than 'a glorious death'. Frodo was not allowed noble 'martyrdom' - there was that momentary peace that he felt at Sam's side once he was relieved of the Ring, had Frodo died at that point he would have died a typical hero, relieved and immortalised by death, forever celebrated by those who remembered him.
Having Frodo return to the Shire, and to fade into relative obscurity in the eyes of the people he sought to save, is really very sad. He has no peace, tormented by memories, guilt, loss and physical hurt; he exists merely on the peripheries of Shire life.
Not every hero gets to bow out in a blaze of glory, sometimes they will simply fade, perhaps forgotten even - how many of these heroes live amongst us, every day in our own communities. The ending is achingly sad yet beautiful.

William Cloud Hicklin · 04-21-2014, 03:32 PM

It is interesting that Tolkien wrote the last chapters, more or less as Michael's guest, during the period where Michael was just putting his life together as a "broken survivor" with severe PTSD.

04-04-2014, 12:24 AM	#1
Lotrelf Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 265	Tolkien says Frodo wrote the book, and later Sam finished it. Merry, Pippin and the others told them their tales, and this was how the Red Book was written. If, Tolkien had killed Frodo and Sam, who'd have known what happened in their journey! Also, their deaths wouldn't seem like sacrifice, instead they'd be like victims of the Shadow. This way, Sam was there to tell the story, and Frodo's ultimate sacrifice became a noble one. P.S. I apologise if someone has posted this thought before, I didn't the entire thread. __________________ A short saying oft contains much wisdom. ~Sophocles

04-21-2014, 03:29 PM	#4
Jabbawocky Took Newly Deceased Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Bagshot Row Posts: 8	Such an interesting discussion, I've gained many new insights from your posts! Thank you. I would agree that the ending of LOTR is anything but happy - surviving a traumatic experience is in many ways more severe than 'a glorious death'. Frodo was not allowed noble 'martyrdom' - there was that momentary peace that he felt at Sam's side once he was relieved of the Ring, had Frodo died at that point he would have died a typical hero, relieved and immortalised by death, forever celebrated by those who remembered him. Having Frodo return to the Shire, and to fade into relative obscurity in the eyes of the people he sought to save, is really very sad. He has no peace, tormented by memories, guilt, loss and physical hurt; he exists merely on the peripheries of Shire life. Not every hero gets to bow out in a blaze of glory, sometimes they will simply fade, perhaps forgotten even - how many of these heroes live amongst us, every day in our own communities. The ending is achingly sad yet beautiful. Last edited by Jabbawocky Took; 04-21-2014 at 03:34 PM.

04-21-2014, 03:32 PM	#5
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	It is interesting that Tolkien wrote the last chapters, more or less as Michael's guest, during the period where Michael was just putting his life together as a "broken survivor" with severe PTSD. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

04-05-2014, 01:59 PM	#2
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	How did I miss this back in the day? Anyway, the observations about Frodo being broken war survivor are apt. Somehow this puts me in mind of Tolkien's dream of the great wave, which preceded WWI, so only if dreams can be prophetic would this work: could there be a correlation between the wave and the war?