Arwen vs. Galadriel

[Mithalwen]

Losing you here...don't give a stuff about Beren and Luthien ( or the drip and the canary as I call them in in my more charitable moments), but Idril is one of my favourites and her judgement is usually sound. But I am confused because Turgon's son in law was Tuor and grandson was Eärendil and was fond of both, Aredhel was his sister not his daughter in the published Sil at least. And I thought Celeborn was descended from Elmo.... bringing that crucial divine Muppet strain into Telerin bloodlines...

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Losing you here...don't give a stuff about Beren and Luthien ( or the drip and the canary as I call them in in my more charitable moments), but Idril is one of my favourites and her judgement is usually sound. But I am confused because Turgon's son in law was Tuor and grandson was Eärendil and was fond of both, Aredhel was his sister not his daughter in the published Sil at least. And I thought Celeborn was descended from Elmo.... bringing that crucial divine Muppet strain into Telerin bloodlines...

hahaha

I did love reading about Aredhel in Valinor. She was a really gung-ho, strong woman, and pretty gutsy. I shouldn't get too serious about Idril, except to say, I suppose if your cous who you're not into is giving you lecherous, creepy looks, you'd be a bit weirded out. Idril is pretty awesome, you have to say....Tuor was a very lucky guy. I love Idril's heraldic device--(but I'd have imagined, that she should have outed it all--the covert themes--so that they could have ironed out Maeglin [who had daddy issues] and help him grow truer. I'd have liked to see Idril chatting to Maeglin and matter-of-factly, without being a psycho, helped out with it all, if possible, and for Maeglin to have been mentored by warm, supportive others and set straight)

Still, *points at them all in Gondolin* you should all have just talked more openly and done something else. Fools the lot of you!

[Ivriniel]

.....I didn't read all ur post right.

Yes, generally, its Elmo, younger bro of the freak Elu, who is, I think grandson of Elmo who is grandsire of Celeborn (another freak). Placing, as you note Elmo as a more distant relative of Galadriel (still in bred. So Irdil, get a life and deal with it). But, in Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, there's a very late essay, written by Tolkien, and a month before his death, noting that Celeborn--known also as Teleporno-very unfortunate phonetic (Telep-orno 'silver tree' is okay, but you get my drift). On Alqualonde, the essay points out that They share the same granddaddy. Creepy. And explicitly points out their exemption from the Kinslaying, and notes they made no anti-Mandos-y vow thing, nabbed a boat, got to Beleriand ahead of Feanor (Galadriel's 'unfriend forever'), and fought "valiantly" against the Kinslaying and made another of those stupid "I'm your enemy forever" promises to thwart cousin Feanor, for Feanor's freak show and murderous impulses.

[Mithalwen]

Nothing freaky about siver hair...they seem to get to be the pretty boy trophy husbands for the alpha females of middle earth, must have something going for them. Also quite possible that Idtrl would have been creeped by Maeglin even if he weren't her cousin. It was just him....

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Nothing freaky about siver hair...they seem to get to be the pretty boy trophy husbands for the alpha females of middle earth, must have something going for them.

I laughed out in a roar!

*note to self* I suppose silver hair would add a splash of head turning and so, the alpha elven bois get a bit of leeway to allow some of their crappy behaviour. Still Galadriel smelled of dwarves (I mean, she loved Khazad Dum and sang dwarf songs with them...Did that make her short?) and Celeborn didn't ditch her, even though he vomited tacks and his head turned at the sight of a dwarf.

Also quite possible that Idtrl would have been creeped by Maeglin even if he weren't her cousin. It was just him....

I mean, daddy made black swords out of meteorites (remember that bit about Beleg and one of Eol's swords) that he learned to forge from Dwarves for Eru's sake! Now Idril must have thought that cous really was all a bit weird! I mean, what use is a black sword at an elfy feast where Silmaril-y songs about the Drip and the Canary (being charitable) are told!

[Galin]

[lighthearted] hahaha I hear ya - it's okay for Galadriel, isn't it! She can marry her cousin, (well, second cousin--but if you're gunna split hairs, Tolkien, really, Galadriel and Celeborn shared their grandfather in Olwe of Alqulonde, in an essay he wrote, one month before his death. His last work, in fact).

This illustrates my 'canon considerations': late-has-weight fails for me here, utterly, as Celeborn the Teler of Swanhaven contradicts author-published description. And we know Tolkien's memory was not 'retentive' in his later years, nor do we have any indication here that he was aware [at the time of writing] that he was stepping on already published material, and didn't mind.

Plus, if it helps, that gets rid of Teleporno the unfortunate name [by association] as there is no need for a Sinda of Beleriand to have a formerly Telerin name.

Or at least, maybe Telporno is better [not Teleporno], which occurs in a very late letter dated December 1972 [the very very late adumbrated tale as paraphrased employs Celeborn I think]. The loss of the vowel in question might possibly be due to syncope...

... although a trained linguist me is not

Also, in general for the thread, maybe the history falls in step with the idea that Elves matured at about the same rate as Men.

Sorry

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galin

snip<--utterly-->snip

That's a bit Maeglin weirded Teleporno because Galadriel grew short when she smelled of Dwarves, because utterly, is a bit utterly utterly-est-are you sure? that sure, est, un-lighted?

Late-has-weight (I like the idiom), tho, as u rightly point out, does not always imply accuracy.

Though, really, I'm not utterly utterly-est sure he (Tolkien) was so void of neuronal integrity at 73 that he would have forgotten good ole crazy alpha boi Celeborn and all that!

The distinct lineage, of Alqualonde carries some weight, imo, coz Galdriel (even as feanor's unfriend forever) was one of the Great-est uber-est. Even ranked as nigh to Feanor......so.....I've always been uncomfortable with her partnering a Teleri who never saw The Trees. It seems to me that Teleporno, for that reason, and of such high lineage, made a better match.

[edit]do u have Tolkien's ct and fMRI scans handy? Post em and let's see how much grey matter was left [/edit]

[Mithalwen]

Well with his background a "We need to talk about Maeglin" situation was perhaps always going to be a possibility. Galadriel was said to be tallest of elven womem estimated at 6"4 and Celeborn of like height. Maybe not exceptional for an elf man though the Teleri were meant to be generally less tall than the Noldo..though the most prominent Thingol, Círdan, Celeborn are all described as tall. Who knows, maybe they are being sarcastic (cf Celeborn the Wise ), maybe it is a euphemism

[Mithalwen]

I'm really not sure Telporno is any better....

And I am loathe to lose the notion that Elves aren't full grown til 50...simply because it is nice to describe oneself as still a teenager in elf years (as opposed to long dead in dog years) but I am prepared to reconsider the evidence when I turn fifty...if Gandalf hasn't whisked me off on an adventure of course...

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

hahaha

I did love reading about Aredhel in Valinor. She was a really gung-ho, strong woman, and pretty gutsy.

Sorry no; with Aredhel I always got the impression that she was a ridiculous prima donna and a "tomboy wannabe" and only went riding and hunting with Feanor's sons because she enjoyed the attention they gave her. "Hey there Celegorm, I won't give you my heart! But feel free to get me some mead while I relax here."
Just remember that later she was to a degree forced into marriage with Eol and took ages to escape.
My mental picture of Aredhel:
http://postimg.org/image/f8voa24b1/

With Maeglin I somewhat agree: Why is okay for Aredhel to fool around with the sons of Feanor (her cousins) but Maeglin can't have Idril?
That being said, Idril did NOT want to marry Maeglin, so it makes the whole point moot. Turgon clearly loved and cherished Maeglin and Morgoth had to use his strongest mind control and torture on Maeglin to get him to betray Gondolin.

[Belegorn]

I do not believe Maeglin was ever tortured, only threatened with it, & it seems he in some part actively decided to betray the Elves of Gondolin if he could have Idril to himself.

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I do not believe Maeglin was ever tortured, only threatened with it, & it seems he in some part actively decided to betray the Elves of Gondolin if he could have Idril to himself.

Oh really? I could have sworn in at least one version he got mind controlled/tortured, though that might have really been just an abandoned idea (in the Lost Tales perhaps?) or me remembering stuff wrong.

Well then, **** Maeglin, the sniveling traitor, who's dumb enough to believe that Melkor would grant him freedom let alone Idril. Let's hope he never gets out of Mandos.

[Belegorn]

In the BoLT 2 "did Melko threaten Meglin with the torment of Balrogs" [ch. 3, p. 170] & "the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his spirit" [Sil., ch. 23, p. 299], however, Melkor did weave about Maeglin, "the spell of bottomeless dread" [BoLT 2, ch. 3, p. 171] in which "dread possessed him that Melko was ever at hand" as he left to take his place again among the Elves, "Morgoth sent him back to Gondolin, lest any should suspect the betrayal, and so that Maeglin should aid the assault from within" [Sil.,ch. 23, p. 299].

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

In the BoLT 2 "did Melko threaten Meglin with the torment of Balrogs" [ch. 3, p. 170] & "the torment wherewith he was threatened cowed his spirit" [Sil., ch. 23, p. 299], however, Melkor did weave about Maeglin, "the spell of bottomeless dread" [BoLT 2, ch. 3, p. 171] in which "dread possessed him that Melko was ever at hand" as he left to take his place again among the Elves, "Morgoth sent him back to Gondolin, lest any should suspect the betrayal, and so that Maeglin should aid the assault from within" [Sil.,ch. 23, p. 299].

Ah yes, thank you that's what I remembered. Of course there was no spell of bottomless dread in the later stories. I'm a huge fan of the BoLT version of the mythology so I sometimes get the two version mixed up.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Orphalesion

Sorry no; with Aredhel I always got the impression that she was a ridiculous prima donna and a "tomboy wannabe" and only went riding and hunting with Feanor's sons because she enjoyed the attention they gave her. "Hey there Celegorm, I won't give you my heart! But feel free to get me some mead while I relax here."
Just remember that later she was to a degree forced into marriage with Eol and took ages to escape.
My mental picture of Aredhel:
http://postimg.org/image/f8voa24b1/

With Maeglin I somewhat agree: Why is okay for Aredhel to fool around with the sons of Feanor (her cousins) but Maeglin can't have Idril?
That being said, Idril did NOT want to marry Maeglin, so it makes the whole point moot. Turgon clearly loved and cherished Maeglin and Morgoth had to use his strongest mind control and torture on Maeglin to get him to betray Gondolin.

HAHAHAH bring it! fun post. I suppose I take ur point, I mean, what was she doing in Valinor, all that horse-y Orome, whatever stuff. I'm seeing a white wedding-dress like outfit on a Shadow-faxy horse thing. And ah, dah Aredhel - um what the! Wearing WHITE whilst fleeing Eol with Maeglin, as she's heading for the outer gate of Gondolin in all that creepy dark vale stuff. With Ungoliant-y creatures everywhere. Yes, nice camouflage choice Aredhel!

Yes, Maeglin was pretty okay, with grand-daddy, despite the whole cliff-throwing episode. He was loyal, hardy in battle and pretty good to Turgon. And, really Tolkien? You're going to point fingers at Maeglin for having power-motives in Gondolin, where granddaddy had everything in lock down! Oh let me guess - only Noldorin 'princes' (precious) could dispossess the Teleri in Beleriand, and of course, that's all okay. Yes, the whole of Arda was just for Elvendom.

Seriously, it must have grated the Nandor, Sindar and Silvan Elves (and Tolkien says as much in several stories) to have their world run over by raging Noldor, after a Kinslaying - OMG - just to track down some stupid jewels.

Now, if that's not precious, what is?