Arwen vs. Galadriel

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It seems you really cannot keep track of arguments. So I will keep things very simple for you.

Elves don't reach physical maturity until at least 50 and for some around 100.
Elves usually have year long betrothals before getting married young sometime after they turn 50.
Earendil and Elwing at 22 would be akin to '11 year olds' at best if they aged like Elves. 22 was considered possibly too young for a Dunedain bride let alone at elf.
There are not going to be marriages for '11 year olds'.

It's simple argument so hopefully you can keep up.

Yes it is perhaps you should have a look at it more often before questioning someone else' validity.

Oh, I can follow along just fine, sir and/or madam, and if you care to be rude, believe me, we can play that game as well.

So, what you are holding desperately onto in such an inanely literal fashion is LACE, an unfinished document written in both A and B succession at different times and which was supposedly translated by the mortal Aelfwine? Is that it? Christopher Tolkien was quite succinct regarding the essay:

"It is clear in any case that is presented as the work, not of one of the Eldar, but of a man..."

If you accept the conceit, how then can you accept that the text is completely reliable -- unfinished and heavily modified as it was?

The Earendil story is among Tolkien's oldest tales, and one nearest to completion and dearest to Tolkien himself. Do you think he rectified his time line in lieu of LACE? Documentation does not show this to be the case. Therefore, your entire rant is based on incomplete data that more than likely would have been rewritten after Tolkien abandoned the Aelfwine character altogether. But it never came to that, ergo, your assumptions are just that, merely assumptions and not the Gospel according to Saint John Ronald Reuel.

[Galin]

It seems you really cannot keep track of arguments. So I will keep things very simple for you. Elves don't reach physical maturity until at least 50 and for some around 100.

And I will attempt to dis-simplify this matter


This idea [from Laws And Customs] of 50 or for some 100 years for Elven physical maturity is not only [arguably] not Tolkien's only idea about this matter, it is arguably not his latest idea on the subject.

It might be his most 'in depth' version on paper, but I think Tolkien later abandoned it for a simpler idea.

[Galin]

Here's my fuller argument...

Morgoth's Ring provides 50 years, for some 100 years (as just noted), and while this has proved to be popular on the web, it's not the only idea Tolkien had in my opinion, nor even the latest idea he had. Other examples include:

'They' are the Númenóreans:

'Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' then they aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly.' Note 1, The Line of Elros, Unfinished Tales

Author's notes to NKE ('neter, kanat, enek'):

Note 1: 'C.E. ? netthi. C.E. tth > Q., T. tt; S. þþ > þ. nette meant 'girl approaching the adult' (in her 'teens': the growth of Elvish children after birth was little if at all slower than that of the children of Men). The Common Eldarin stem (wen-ed) wendé 'maiden' applied to all stages up to the fully adult (until marriage).' JRRT, from Vinyar Tengwar 47, texts generally dated 1967-70

This text is quite a bit later than Laws And Customs Among the Eldar (Morgoth's Ring), which generally dates to the late 1950s early 1960s.

Anyway these two texts appear [to me] to say that the Eldar grew at about the same rate as Men.

But even this is not the complete story, as there is another indication, from other texts published in Morgoth's Ring (still later 1950s however), that the Eldar, at least early in the history of Middle-earth and in Aman, matured much slower than 50 to 100 years -- and actually the notion seems to be that it took roughly 3,000 years for an Elf-child to become an adult! and possibly (based on a further text written at this time called Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth) in Middle-earth (not in Aman) this rate dwindled*, meaning that it took less time to grow to be an adult in Middle-earth as time passed, suggesting Elven children reached maturity faster and faster until at least Finrod's conversation with Andreth.

This idea is wound up with possible drastic changes in the internal chronology, as well as the notion of 144 Sun Years being equal to 1 Valian Year (not roughly 10 Sun Years being equal to 1 Valian Year, as formerly).


It might be 'remotely' possible that all these ideas could be parts of the same idea, the notion being: a rate of growth that dwindled in Middle-earth as time passed, if the rate rather drastically altered in Middle-earth over time that is: thus 3,000 or so years very early on (and in Aman), but after time the Elves matured faster and faster, and at some point this rate reduced to 50 or 100 years, perhaps at the time of Finrod's conversation with Andreth* -- and even later, the Eldar ultimately grew at much the same rate as Men.

I think that's much less likely than Tolkien simply changing his mind however, as 3,000-ish to about the same rate as Men is quite the change internally! It was probably easier to keep track of chronology if Elves simply matured at the same rate as Men, but that's a total guess as to why Tolkien seems to have later headed that way.

_______________

*'This I can well believe,' said Finrod: 'That your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda is tainted by him, before ye or we came forth and drew our hroar and their sustenance therefrom: all save only Aman before he came there. For know it is not otherwise with the Quendi themselves: their health and stature is diminished. Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change* [*the word change was an emendation to the typescript B (only); the manuscript has growth -- footnote by CJRT] of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning. And that, I judge, must forebode that they will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be, though this may not be clearly revealed for many long years.'

Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (and see Author's note 7 on the Commentary)

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galin

And I will attempt to dis-simplify this matter


This idea [from Laws And Customs] of 50 or for some 100 years for Elven physical maturity is not only [arguably] not Tolkien's only idea about this matter, it is arguably not his latest idea on the subject.

It might be his most 'in depth' version on paper, but I think Tolkien later abandoned it for a simpler idea.

Then let me once more attempt to re-simplify the matter. The idea of Men growing slower than Elves is not just found in Laws and Customs.

The Children of Hurin, which is actually published as a complete story and edited to fit also has this notion.

Sador may be wrong, but his information is supported elsewhere.

'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.'

Ultimately as you yourself have done prior, I give precedent to actually published stories over notes, unless there is a clear mistake which Christopher Tolkien later clears up.

I don't have the Vinyar Tengwar and know the full context of that quote.

We do have the essay in Morgoth's ring which is Tolkien's most extensive work on the subject and it is corroborated by Sador's words.

As for the 3,000 years that seems to have been a disregarded idea, because considering the time frame we have, then the fourth generation descendants of Finwe like Idril would not be born before the rebellion.

I will look up things and write more in depth later.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Then let me once more attempt to re-simplify the matter. The idea of Men growing slower than Elves is not just found in Laws and Customs.

The Children of Hurin, which is actually published as a complete story and edited to fit also has this notion.

Sador may be wrong, but his information is supported elsewhere.

'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.'

Cellurdur, you merely want to pick and choose the mortar for your literal brick wall, when Tolkien chronologies are not necessairly set in stone. Taking Sador's statement at face value, yes, mortal children DO age faster than Elves; however, as I said before, that could mean having children in one's teens and then being considered middle-aged by the time one hits 30, and then suffering old age and dying before 50, as is certainly a known fact in recorded history for large populations of people over thousands of years.

Again, Earendil and Elwing did not have children until 29, which would be certainly much older - perhaps ten to fifteen years older - than mortals of any time in real history up to the 19th or 20th century. Don't you find it all all odd that Earendil and Elwing did not have children until 7 years after their wedding? Do you think about that at all? Or do you not think about things that you don't want to think about?

You want to base everything on LACE which was heavily emended and incomplete, and most certainly would have to be rewritten again considering Tolkien completely abandoned the whole Aelfwine story line. Yet you also wish to completely ignore Galin's quote from Tolkien regarding Numenoreans, or the author's notes from the Vinyar Tengwar which are nearly 20 years more recent and trumps LACE.

What you need to do is to drop the magisterial tone and the condescension and realize your assumptions are not set in stone, and what you BELIEVE to be true is not necessarily canon, and that Tolkien cannot even be counted on to be wholly orthodox in his own canonicity.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Then let me once more attempt to re-simplify the matter. The idea of Men growing slower than Elves is not just found in Laws and Customs.

The Children of Hurin, which is actually published as a complete story and edited to fit also has this notion.

Sador may be wrong, but his information is supported elsewhere.

'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.'

Ultimately as you yourself have done prior, I give precedent to actually published stories over notes, unless there is a clear mistake which Christopher Tolkien later clears up.

I don't have the Vinyar Tengwar and know the full context of that quote.

We do have the essay in Morgoth's ring which is Tolkien's most extensive work on the subject and it is corroborated by Sador's words.

As for the 3,000 years that seems to have been a disregarded idea, because considering the time frame we have, then the fourth generation descendants of Finwe like Idril would not be born before the rebellion.

I will look up things and write more in depth later.

Cellurdur, Galin's materials quote and cite competing materials about the subject of aging. Yours resume a focus on Morgoth's Ring. You can't esteem or weight those as the primordial uber-duber est-est, best-est, ungoliantified beauty means that Morgoth's unlighted web was what he married Manwe, which made Varda look blue, not green (because Valar don't get jealous, but bothered) and so the Silmaril ate him, therefore, Elven children age like Shelob.

You're going to have to quote competing citations. That, as I read this, at this point, is your recourse for re-validating your argument, by quoting the competing ages of the various citations, and then see what various editors, (e.g. chris, daddy's son) have to say about what this means, and about what it means when the Silmaril eating Morgoth, when Galadriel and Feanor were unfriends forever.

At this point, I'm leaning with Galin's and Morthoron's interpretations as the most influential/authoritative on the point of the rate of aging elves. Galin is extremely thorough in how he accesses and comments on matters. There's a great deal of work in the effort to quote the actual prose from competing texts. There are actual quotations, which is a lot of extra work. Sometimes, shifting in a personal opinion means having to surrender to a point, with generosity, at those times it's time to enjoy a refresher course on a matter. It's not personal.

So, whilst you're saying unlight eats Valinor's return from Mandos's undecree of Fea-galadriel's friend-unfriending, to the extent I buy your argument, Morgoth's Ring has something to say about this. But, as Galin points out, popularity of an opinion sometimes does not guarantee authenticity of an opinion.

[Nerwen]

I don't think the age at which Earendil and Elwing married and had children tells us anything.

On the one hand, it doesn't have to mean they were maturing *slower* than garden-variety mortals- marriage customs, life expectancy and so forth should not be confused with the actual biological clock. Perhaps they'd just waited so as not to scandalise their Elvish relatives...

-On the other hand, it makes them "eleven" only if you assume that the version in "Laws and Customs" was what Tolkien had in mind when he was writing Earendil and Elwing's history (or, for that matter, Dior's). The question, then is- do we have any good reason to believe this is the case? (I'm not at all sure Sador's words do count as "corroboration", since he gives no specifics.)

EDIT: in case of misunderstanding, "eleven" refers to age and is not a typo for "elven"!

[Ivriniel]

I take your point....that's the other way to get at this. I like that style of analysis, which is about making an inference, from the way the story was told, in text, as a narrative.

I haven't had a chance to wade through the narratives we have (e.g. The Silmarillion, and how the actual story was told, and what that might mean. For hints about the rate Elf children age).

I can't recall, off the top of my head, in UT, or other materials, LotR, The Hobbit and Unfinished Tales what essays say in text about elf kids. This is unlike Aragorn, where, in the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, text specifically says several important things about Numenorean maturation.

Aragorn "...was new to manhood, early", i.e. about 20/21, at most, as was the way Numenorean kids could/did, though they live 'thrice the span' of other Men (though this, in Letters, even has been cited at 'twice' not 'thrice'). But *in text* it is stated, "thrice" many times. We also know Aragorn met Arwen when he was around 50ish in Lorien, where she got all swoon-y about him and starry eyed, and all like "oh, he's lordly-est of lordified, look at him and how hot he is".

Relevance of this? ....of the Line of Elros... and the supposition that early maturation does not imply shorter longevity. I'd never heard of anything different to that for Elfy folk.

Certainly, the half-elven do not appear to mature more slowly. Are there any in text stories about Elf kids, and how early they matured? I can't think of any. I'm going to return to The Silmarillion and have a look....

[Ivriniel]

There's another mode of analysis available about the rate of maturation of Elves. Beleriand's history in FA is relatively short, some 500 years, it would seem.

I don't see indication of 200 year maturations being viable in this setting, in a generational legacy of Elven births. For example, Gondolin is constructed in 54, Aredhel leaves Gondolin at year 104, presumably not as a child. (anyone dispute this?) Maeglin is born in 320. Gondolin falls 510. He was 190. Definitely fully mature.

Earendil and Elwing born 503, depart for Valinor 525. This one, in my reading is pretty influential (Elwing was 3 parts Elf, 1 part Man). They didn't get to Valinor until 542 - I didn't realise that journey took them so long Anyhooz, she was 22 by the time she was on a boat with her beloved.

Dior Born 470, weds Nimloth 497 (27).

I am annoyed that significant elfy births aren't so prominent, and with the notable absence of indications of their maturation, so, we have a lot more half-elfy ideas. I'm not sure this should be taken as a problem. Wombs. Gestations. Etc seem pretty similar as do developmental trajectories.

The elfy materials are somewhat less definitive, but do have some implications about maturation, in a "not greater than" statement. Aredhel, 104 years.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Beards anyone on the men of Elendil's line (I'm not sure on that item)?

The statue of the (presumably Gondorian) King at the Cross-roads (above Osgiliath) was bearded.

------------------------------------

On Dior: Turin was nicknamed Adanedhel, "Elf-man," but that doesn't mean he was literally a half-elf.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Then let me once more attempt to re-simplify the matter. The idea of Men growing slower than Elves is not just found in Laws and Customs. The Children of Hurin, which is actually published as a complete story and edited to fit also has this notion. Sador may be wrong, but his information is supported elsewhere.

'for in their first youth the Children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly and their youth passes soon; such is our fate.'

As far as I'm aware this section of the Narn was written in the later 1950s, thus it would not be surprising if it seems to agree with Laws And Customs.

:shrug:

Ultimately as you yourself have done prior, I give precedent to actually published stories over notes, unless there is a clear mistake which Christopher Tolkien later clears up.

Distinction: generally speaking I give precedent to texts or stories published by Tolkien himself. And with respect to posthumously published writings, I generally give latest date [if known] heavy weight.

But each scenario has its own considerations.

I don't have the Vinyar Tengwar and know the full context of that quote.

In my opinion there is nothing else in the fuller context to change the meaning of the citation I posted above. I didn't re-read the whole text again today, but as far as I recall the growth of Elves is here more of a sidenote with respect to the rest of the text.

It's a brief, late statement, but notable.

We do have the essay in Morgoth's ring which is Tolkien's most extensive work on the subject and it is corroborated by Sador's words.

Yet the consideration that Laws And Customs is more extensive than something else in no way means a different idea cannot replace it, so not only do we still have both citations to unsimplify matters [not one text taken as a 'given' for example], but various opinions about how to weight posthumously published material.

As for the 3,000 years that seems to have been a disregarded idea, because considering the time frame we have, then the fourth generation descendants of Finwe like Idril would not be born before the rebellion.

I will look up things and write more in depth later.

Are you using 144 Sun Years to equal 1 Valian Year? And even if you are, can we be certain Tolkien was not going to adjust any dates in the already existing annals, to help make certain new ideas work better?

And anyway the idea from Vinyar Tengwar is certainly later than the notion of 3,000 years -- which itself was written in the same general 'phase' as L&C.

I think things remain more complicated than before