Denethor vs. Aragorn

[Sarumian]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Or combine both this and the other concept; make Denethor Lord of the now conquered Mordor lands, and task HIM with putting them back into shape on a sort of "You sort of helped to cause all this, now you fix it!" mentality. It probably isn't all that risky. However much Denethor hates Aragorn, he hated Modor even more, so concepts like him trying to become the new dark lord himself seems remote. Aragorn could even let him keep the Anor stone(he has the Orthanc stone, so he really doesn't need to keep two so close together) so that he can keep an eye on him. Let Denethor keep those troops that are loyal to him (presumably his personal guard) and see how he does.

Well, if Aragorn had really wanted Denethor to commit suicide, he would have done something like this.

Seriously, Denethor (in the book) does not deserve such accusations. He struggled to do his best, he fully prepared city to the fight. It was neither in his, nor in any other man's or elf's capacity to win the struggle.

And, in the end, he would have been too much exhausted to carry out a truly challenging duty. But he, in my opinion, deserved a nice retirement.

[cellurdur]

Aragorn's not going to force the people or the council of Gondor to accept him as king, but if the majority do then he is not going to turn it down, because Denethor dissents. If the majority of the nobles and people back Aragorn,and Dentheor tried to cause friction; I believe Aragorn would be fully prepared to put down Denethor and those that he roused to fight for him.

[Faramir Jones]

Tolkien looked at what might have happened if Denethor hadn't committed suicide, in an early draft of LotR:

By evening of 15th [in pencil > 14] in a bloodred sun victory is complete. All enemy is driven into or back over Anduin. Aragorn sets up his pavilion and standard outside gate, but will not enter city, yet. Denethor comes down to greet the victors. Théoden dies. He bids farewell to Gandalf, Aragorn, Éomer and Merry. Théoden and Éowyn laid for a time in the royal tombs.

Words of Aragorn and Denethor. Denethor will not yield Stewardship, yet: not until war is won or lost and all is made clear. He is cold and suspicious and ? mock-courteous. Aragorn grave and silent. But Denethor says that belike the Stewardship will run out anyway, since he seems like to lose both his sons. Faramir is sick of his wounds. If he dies then Gondor can take what new lord it likes. Aragorn says that he will not be 'taken', he will take, but asks to see Faramir. Faramir is brought out and Aragorn tends him all that night, and love springs between them. (History of Middle-earth: VIII. The War of the Ring, p. 360) (My emphasis)

Unlike Faramir, Denethor would have insisted on all the legal forms being followed, as well as waiting to see how the war ends. If we assume that the Ring is destroyed and the war won, Aragorn would then formally petition Denethor for a meeting of the Council of Gondor, in order to present his claim to the kingship.

In terms of who was on the Council, I agree with what Belegorn said earlier:

I would think Faramir might be on that Council as well, I've got to check. I'm not sure if the Steward's had their heirs on the the Council or not, certainly I'd think the Lord of Dol Amroth would be there, and maybe even non-Dunedain from other provinces who were the Lords thereof.

Certainly, the 'Council of the Sceptre' the Council of Númenor, had the King's Heir (once proclaimed) as a member, in order to gain experience of ruling. I'm taking it that the Kings of Gondor made their heirs members of the Council of Gondor in a similar manner, and that the Ruling Stewards did this with their heirs. For example, the 'Tradition of Isildur', carried on by the kings, was continued by the stewards.

As well as Faramir, certainly the Prince of Dol Amroth would also be a member, and the relevant Lords who survived the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, or the acknowledged heirs of those who did not.

Let us assume that the Council, after hearing Aragorn make his case, unanimously vote in favour of recognising his claim to the kingship. It's then up to Denethor to decide whether he agrees with them.

If he refuses, then there is the issue of whether he would have any real support, risking a civil war. My opinion is that he would have no support; so instead of a civil war, Gondorians would simply refuse to obey his orders. Imrahil, even before Aragorn was king, said that he accepted him as his liege lord; and this would be even more so after he formally presented his legitimate claim.

I believe that Denethor, whether after the vote, or after finding that no one would obey him, would then have to accept Aragorn's claim. He could avoid doing so formally by resigning the stewardship in favour of Faramir, who would then formally acknowledge Aragorn's claim. He would then avoid being the steward of an 'upstart', assuming that he still felt that way.

If he is still steward, then the new king Elessar would certainly confirm him and his heirs in the possession of that office. If he decides to continue in that office, then I suggest that his relationship with his new king would be 'correct', but not intimate. Both of them would certainly be at odds in terms of how the peoples released from Sauron's rule should be treated, Denethor being in favour of a more vindictive policy. Relations with Faramir will be strained for that reason.

Despite all this, I'm sure that Elessar would offer great rewards to Denethor, including the title of Prince. If the latter felt that the new king was an 'upstart' he would refuse any rewards. On the other hand, he might accept them on behalf of his ancestors and of his son. Perhaps he asks that they be given to Faramir.

On a personal note, I'm assuming (romantic that I am!) that Faramir and Éowyn still fall in love and marry. Denethor would, I'm very sure, approve of the match, she being a worthy consort, both in her background and in her own abilities, for his son. Perhaps relations with Faramir improve with the birth of grandchildren. I can certainly see him shocking people by being the doting grandfather! Perhaps a grandchild later ends up defending his behaviour...

What do people think?

[Belegorn]

I think you're a romantic.

I agree with you although I do think Denethor would do what is best for Gondor in any situation, his losing his mind aside.

"to him is no purpose higher in the world as it now stands than the good of Gondor; & the rule of Gondor, my lord, is mine and no other man's, unless the king should come again." [RotK, bk. 5 ch.1, p. 32]

I'm not quite sure how Denethor would feel about his son marrying a Rohirrim, although they are quite recently descended from nobles in Dol Amroth, and Éowyn's uncle did live in Gondor for a bit. I do think Denethor was a bit more old school and would not be quite taken with his son marrying someone not of high Númenórean descent. It seems he laments the decline of the High Men on Faramir's apparent deathbed, "my line too is ending, even the House of the Stewards has failed. Mean folk shall rule the last remnants of the Kings of Men." [RotK, bk. 5, ch. 4, p. 107]

Such members of the Council may include those who rode to Gondor;

"Forlong the Fat, the Lord of Lossarnach... a man of wide shoulders and huge girth, but old and grey-beareded, yet mail-clad and black-helmed and bearing a long heavy spear. Behing him marched proudly a dusty line of men... shorter and somewhat swarthier than any men that Pippen had yet seen in Gondor... men of Ringló Vale behind the son of their lord, Dervorin striding on foot... from the uplands of Morthond, the great Blackroot Vale, tall Duinhir with his sons, Duilin and Derufin, and five hundred bowmen. From the Anfalas, the Longstrand far away... scantily equipped save for the household of Golasgil their Lord... Hirluin the Fair of the Green Hills from Pinnath Gelin... last and proudest, Imrahil, Prince of Dol Amroth, kinsman of the Lord... behind them seven hundreds of men at arms, tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired" [RotK, Bk. 5, ch1., p. 46]

Cirion did have his son with him along with the Prince of Dol Amroth and 2 Council members when he spoke with Eorl. I too was thinking of Númenor's council when I mentioned Faramir possibly being on Gondor's. In note #23 of Aldarion and Erendis it's said, "The Council was composed of members from each of the divisions of Númenor; but the King's heir when proclaimed was also a member, so that he might learn of the government of the land,".