Biggest Heroes in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

But it still is all about them. Makes it worse really if needless. Fighting to the last drop of other people's blood is the opposite of heroic.

How did they fight to the drop of other people's blood? Beren was set an unfair quest which he did not ask for or want. Luthien for the love of Beren and his desire to remain faithful to his oath undertook the most dangerous mission any elf has undertaken ever. Other people helped them along the quest, because of the love they had for Luthien and Beren. They did not force anyone to fight for them. Finrod and Huan chose to help as did the 12 other elves.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

How did they fight to the drop of other people's blood? Beren was set an unfair quest which he did not ask for or want. Luthien for the love of Beren and his desire to remain faithful to his oath undertook the most dangerous mission any elf has undertaken ever. Other people helped them along the quest, because of the love they had for Luthien and Beren. They did not force anyone to fight for them. Finrod and Huan chose to help as did the 12 other elves.

Personally, I could see Luthien as somewhat heroic, facing down Morgoth for the sake of her love. Beren, though? "I love you and need a Silmaril to marry you, so would you mind getting one for me?" He doesn't do anything except let other people do the work! First Finrod, then Luthien... I loved him when he was the last survivor of Barahir's group - then he was certainly a hero, but we don't really hear much about his "adventures" there. It was very heroic to cross Dor Daedeloth, and very climactic that the Girdle of Melian was powerless to stop him. But from there he just makes promises he cannot (and in truth does not) fulfil, and gets other people to do it for him. Yes, he wants to do it himself and keep Luthien out of danger, but each time he never actually ends up doing anything and other people pay for his Silmaril.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Personally, I could see Luthien as somewhat heroic, facing down Morgoth for the sake of her love. Beren, though? "I love you and need a Silmaril to marry you, so would you mind getting one for me?" He doesn't do anything except let other people do the work! First Finrod, then Luthien... I loved him when he was the last survivor of Barahir's group - then he was certainly a hero, but we don't really hear much about his "adventures" there. It was very heroic to cross Dor Daedeloth, and very climactic that the Girdle of Melian was powerless to stop him. But from there he just makes promises he cannot (and in truth does not) fulfil, and gets other people to do it for him. Yes, he wants to do it himself and keep Luthien out of danger, but each time he never actually ends up doing anything and other people pay for his Silmaril.

Beren cannot be blamed for not having the power to match Luthien, but you seem to be forgetting that he saved her from the sons of Feanor. He speared Celegorm off his horse and it was he, who took a poisonous arrow to save Luthien's life. He then faces Morgoth, which must have been terrifying and cuts the Silmaril from his crown. He is also the one, who jumps out to stop Carcharoth when Luthien is tired. Finally he dies saving Thingol's life. Luthien being the greatest and the most powerful of all the Children accomplished more, but Beren played his part and was prepared to sneak through the gates of Hell with her.

Beren also actually keeps his promise. The next time he sees Thingol, there is indeed a Silmaril in his hand.

As for his adventures prior we know he did enough that he had a prince on his head equal to Fingon the High King of the Noldor. Sauron himself had to be sent with an army at his back to drive him away. We know enough about Dor Daedeloth to know it was inhabited with several Shelob like spiders, but Beren alone got through them.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Beren cannot be blamed for not having the power to match Luthien, but you seem to be forgetting that he saved her from the sons of Feanor. He speared Celegorm off his horse and it was he, who took a poisonous arrow to save Luthien's life. He then faces Morgoth, which must have been terrifying and cuts the Silmaril from his crown. He is also the one, who jumps out to stop Carcharoth when Luthien is tired. Finally he dies saving Thingol's life. Luthien being the greatest and the most powerful of all the Children accomplished more, but Beren played his part and was prepared to sneak through the gates of Hell with her.

Beren also actually keeps his promise. The next time he sees Thingol, there is indeed a Silmaril in his hand.

As for his adventures prior we know he did enough that he had a prince on his head equal to Fingon the High King of the Noldor. Sauron himself had to be sent with an army at his back to drive him away. We know enough about Dor Daedeloth to know it was inhabited with several Shelob like spiders, but Beren alone got through them.

high five to that. I add in that it was a story about the power of two/love, and how heroism is evoked for and of love. Neither Beren nor Luthien would, either alone, have been so moved to heroism, but for their love of each other. Unto the end of time they would have gone for their love.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Beren cannot be blamed for not having the power to match Luthien, but you seem to be forgetting that he saved her from the sons of Feanor. He speared Celegorm off his horse and it was he, who took a poisonous arrow to save Luthien's life. He then faces Morgoth, which must have been terrifying and cuts the Silmaril from his crown.

I agree with Beren being at the top of the list of heroes. However, only one hero ever dared to fight Morgoth.

Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld... the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I would characterize Fingolfin's last fight as brave, but heroic? Vainglorious and foolish, rather; at best the sort of empty valor displayed in a Japanese banzai charge. Just suicide dressed up as courage. It accomplished nothing and cost the Noldor their king.- the sort of ofermod Tolkien condemned in Beorhtnoth and Beowulf.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I would characterize Fingolfin's last fight as brave, but heroic? Vainglorious and foolish, rather; at best the sort of empty valor displayed in a Japanese banzai charge. Just suicide dressed up as courage. It accomplished nothing and cost the Noldor their king.- the sort of ofermod Tolkien condemned in Beorhtnoth and Beowulf.

Yes, heroic. Is there anything heroic that's not suicidal? You can't be a hero unless you take great risks and (potentially) give up all you have, including your life, for your cause. Fingolfin utterly despaired and was definitely desperate, which makes him somewhat suicidal, but suicide is not what he had in mind when he changed Thangorodrim. It was not "I want to die now, so let's arrange for Morgoth to kill me. I'll look good, but it's not like I have any chance against him". It was more like "Have we not done everything that's possible to defeat him? Mandos' profecy must be coming true, and we'll come to complete destruction. I hate Morgoth! I'm in complete despair! There's no way out, no solution! Nothing we can do will be any good!"

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

How did they fight to the drop of other people's blood? Beren was set an unfair quest which he did not ask for or want. Luthien for the love of Beren and his desire to remain faithful to his oath undertook the most dangerous mission any elf has undertaken ever. Other people helped them along the quest, because of the love they had for Luthien and Beren. They did not force anyone to fight for them. Finrod and Huan chose to help as did the 12 other elves.

Finrod did not choose he was held to HIS oath to Barahir. His companions did it for Finrod. All sacrificed for the benefit of a woman who can't even stand up to her own father, who lets herself be shut in a tree. Sacrificing everything for love is ludicrously adolescent and when others die needlessly, selfish.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Finrod did not choose he was held to HIS oath to Barahir. His companions did it for Finrod. All sacrificed for the benefit of a woman who can't even stand up to her own father, who lets herself be shut in a tree. Sacrificing everything for love is ludicrously adolescent and when others die needlessly, selfish.

So Finrod was held to his oath, but Beren was not? They both had a choice whether to keep their oaths or abandon them. Sometimes as Tolkien shows as with Beregond.

If I remember correctly Luthien escaped from the dungeon and went off to save Beren. People sacrifice and are sacrificed everyday for much less than love. Personally if you are going to sacrifice yourself then 'love' is a much better reason than gold or land. Nor is it a problem when those that love you join in the quest. It seems we will never be in agreement about this.

[Mithalwen]

No I am saying that he went out of obligation not choice. He didn't go because he thought it was a good idea or worthwhile or for love. Beren fulfilling his oath was for his own benefit. Noone else benefitted and many suffered and died . Compares very unfavourably to Frodo who deliberately tries to prevent his friends joining him on a hopeless quest. I have no problem with people sacrificing themselves for love if they are idiotic enough to do so, it is sacrificing others for it I object to. Kingdoms fell, many died so Beren and Luthien could satisfy their mutual lust. Better they sacrifice their "love" than even one other life. That might have been heroic.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

No I am saying that he went out of obligation not choice. He didn't go because he thought it was a good idea or worthwhile or for love. Beren fulfilling his oath was for his own benefit. Noone else benefitted and many suffered and died . Compares very unfavourably to Frodo who deliberately tries to prevent his friends joining him on a hopeless quest. I have no problem with people sacrificing themselves for love if they are idiotic enough to do so, it is sacrificing others for it I object to. Kingdoms fell, many died so Beren and Luthien could satisfy their mutual lust. Better they sacrifice their "love" than even one other life. That might have been heroic.

Finrod had a choice whether to break his oath or stick by it. The same as Belegrond did. Finrod made the choice to keep his oath.

Beren did not need to fulfill his oath to gain any benefit for himself. Luthien had already declared that she would stick with him no matter what.

'But on either road I will go with you, and our doom shall be alike.'

Fulfilling his oath gave Beren nothing, but he felt compelled as an honourable man to try and fulfill his oath or die in the attempt.

Beren too tried to protect Luthien from the dangers of Morgoth and left her.

'Then Beren being torn between his oath and his love, and knowing Luthien to be now safe, arose one morning before the sun, and committed her to the care of Huan; then in great anguish he departed whilst she still slept on the grass.'

Beren gives up having a life with Luthien, his love, to try and fulfill the oath though he is almost certain to die. He is not doing this for anything he can gain, but to be a man of his word.

'Thrice now I curse my oath to Thingol' he said ' And I would rather that he had slain me in Menegorth, rather than I should bring you under the shadow of Morgoth'.

If you have no problem with people sacrificing themselves for love then why do you have a problem with Finrod's companions doing the same thing or even Finrod.

Beren and Luthien never forced anyone to die for them. People helped them, because they loved them. Huan and Finrod and the other elves. However, you would call them idiotic.