Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As the Steward announces, the throne of Gondor was passed strictly to the SONS of Anarion. They followed Salic succession, so anyone descendant through the female line would not be eligible for the kingship.

The Prince of Dol Amroth was the second highest ranking nobile in Gondor. Daughters of the royal family were very likely to marry into that line at some point meaning that the Princes of Dol Amroth would be descendants of Anarion.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

No I mean that all Peredhil were mortal from this point onwards. The only exceptions are to the descendants of Earendil and Elwing, because of the great sacrifice they made.

The Choice of the Peredhil went beyond Earendil. It went to Elwing, and to any, I believe. Elwing had a very different lineage. Dior took an Elven wife from Doriath and he was born *after* Luthien was restored to life as a *mortal*. Earendil and Elwing were the first Half Elven to be formerly gifted with the Choice of the Peredhil after a specific decree and intervention from Valinor, that did not circumscribe its bounds to Earendil's lineage. See also, below, my comments about Luthien.

This is only true of the line of Earendil. All other Halfelves would have no choice and be mortal.

No. The Choice of the Peredhil was not bound to a specific lineage, such as Earendil. I suspect that in Dol Amroth, the reason for no immortality, was for choice to belong to the lines of Men.

An elf cannot change his or her fate any more than a Man can. Any elf that married a mortal would remain immortal......Luthien was not a case of a Halfelven being given a choice. It was her making a deal to get Beren back, which meant giving up her immortality. In return Beren was brought back to life and this was a unique exception counter balanced by Tuor being the only mortal to ever become immortal.

Not quite. She died of grief for love of Beren. Mandos brought them both back to life, and granted Luthien mortality. She died, as a mortal, and had two sojourns to the Halls of Mandos. The first was after she died of grief, the second when she died after living with Beren, for a time, in Beleriand. They had Dior, who, I really do not see as someone with the life of the Eldar, given what we know became of Luthien.

In any case, all this occurred before the Choice of the Peredhil was formalised, in Valinor, after Earendil's arrival there.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

The Choice of the Peredhil went beyond Earendil. It went to Elwing, and to any, I believe. Elwing had a very different lineage. Dior took an Elven wife from Doriath and he was born *after* Luthien was restored to life as a *mortal*. Earendil and Elwing were the first Half Elven to be formerly gifted with the Choice of the Peredhil after a specific decree and intervention from Valinor, that did not circumscribe its bounds to Earendil's lineage. See also, below, my comments about Luthien.

Yes I know, which is why I said it was a special gift to their family ALONE, because of their sacrifice. It was not something, which would be given to any other Peredhil again.

No. The Choice of the Peredhil was not bound to a specific lineage, such as Earendil. I suspect that in Dol Amroth, the reason for no immortality, was for choice to belong to the lines of Men.

Except it was. Only the line of Earendil and Elwing was given a choice, because of their actions. In every other case the descendants would remain mortal like Dol Amroth.

Not quite. She died of grief for love of Beren. Mandos brought them both back to life, and granted Luthien mortality. She died, as a mortal, and had two sojourns to the Halls of Mandos. The first was after she died of grief, the second when she died after living with Beren, for a time, in Beleriand. They had Dior, who, I really do not see as someone with the life of the Eldar, given what we know became of Luthien.

In any case, all this occurred before the Choice of the Peredhil was formalised, in Valinor, after Earendil's arrival there.

Luthien was given the chance to be mortal, but she remained an elf. I am aware she died, but she too because of the beauty of her son was given a choice. She could dwell in bliss in Valinor or return to Middle-Earth with Beren.

She may have been mortal, but she remained an Elf.

Dior is a strange case, because there had been no judgement made at the point he died. This is clear since Mandos and Ulmo question whether Earendil is a Noldor or a Man.

Dior lived most his life with the elves. He ruled Doriath and married an elf, which is not counted amongst the union of Elves and Men. When laws have been established like with the case of Imrazor and Mithrellas then you know what you are going into. Not so with Dior and I like to think he would have been given a choice.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yes I know, which is why I said it was a special gift to their family ALONE, because of their sacrifice. It was not something, which would be given to any other Peredhil again.

Except it was. Only the line of Earendil and Elwing was given a choice, because of their actions. In every other case the descendants would remain mortal like Dol Amroth.

I re-read an excerpt from the Silmarillion, and it actually does state that Mandos made the decree, just to Earnedil's and Elwing's **male** offspring.

There is an immediate difficulty here, in Arwen, who was not male, and who had the opportunity of immortality. I am also wondering if there are other materials about the Peredil that I have read and forgotten about, but which challenge the other aspect of Mandos's decision, binding the Choice to two blood lines.

Luthien was given the chance to be mortal, but she remained an elf. I am aware she died, but she too because of the beauty of her son was given a choice. She could dwell in bliss in Valinor or return to Middle-Earth with Beren.

She may have been mortal, but she remained an Elf

Was it her beauty? I'm not sure about that one. Mandos brought her back to life, who was somehow moved, and I would suspect because of her heroism and sacrifice, for love, and because she succeeded, with Beren, in gaining a Silmaril. She was restored as a Mortal, and she and Beren had a rather short life. I believe they lived with the Silmaril nearby for a while, before Dior (who must have been mortal) returned to Doriath to become lord there, after Elu Thingol was slain. Entre Elured, Eluren and Elwing.

This is clear since Mandos and Ulmo question whether Earendil is a Noldor or a Man.....When laws have been established like with the case of Imrazor and Mithrellas then you know what you are going into. Not so with Dior and I like to think he would have been given a choice.

I'm not so sure about Imrahil's blood line. The part-elven offspring were reared by Edain, which makes it very likely they defaulted on any potential immortality because of that.

Let me do some research on Mandos's decree. I may unearth further materials about the Choice of the Peredhil

Irvriniel

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I re-read an excerpt from the Silmarillion, and it actually does state that Mandos made the decree, just to Earnedil's and Elwing's **male** offspring.

There is an immediate difficulty here, in Arwen, who was not male, and who had the opportunity of immortality. I am also wondering if there are other materials about the Peredil that I have read and forgotten about, but which challenge the other aspect of Mandos's decision, binding the Choice to two blood lines.



Was it her beauty? I'm not sure about that one. Mandos brought her back to life, who was somehow moved, and I would suspect because of her heroism and sacrifice, for love, and because she succeeded, with Beren, in gaining a Silmaril. She was restored as a Mortal, and she and Beren had a rather short life. I believe they lived with the Silmaril nearby for a while, before Dior (who must have been mortal) returned to Doriath to become lord there, after Elu Thingol was slain. Entre Elured, Eluren and Elwing.



I'm not so sure about Imrahil's blood line. The part-elven offspring were reared by Edain, which makes it very likely they defaulted on any potential immortality because of that.

Let me do some research on Mandos's decree. I may unearth further materials about the Choice of the Peredhil

Irvriniel

Quickly I meant the beauty of Luthien's SONG and not son.

Mandos made the decree about Earendil and Elwing son's because they were the only descendants alive at the time. It would be cruel to allow Elrond to live like an Elf, but doom his children to be mortal.

Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor)and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity: so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel – have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.-Letter 153

It's in a very early draft of the Quenta Silmarillion we get this statement.

'Then Manwë gave judgement and he said: 'To Eärendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'


It's also possible that the story of Mithrellas and Imrazor is just a legend made up to explain the distinctly elvish appearance of the Princes of Dol Amroth. It's possible that as in the alternative account they were descendants of Elros, who happened to retain the elvish look more than most.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Quickly I meant the beauty of Luthien's SONG and not son.

Mandos made the decree about Earendil and Elwing son's because they were the only descendants alive at the time. It would be cruel to allow Elrond to live like an Elf, but doom his children to be mortal.

I'm comfortable with the idea.

But there's, as you point out, still the question of Mithrelas, who was with Imrazor, very Numenorean was he, and with him long enough to bear him Galador (male, the founder of the Line of the Princes of Dol Amroth) and Gimith ('star-mist' a really beautiful Elvish name. We never found out what happened to her, and how many children, and to whom she bore them. But with that kind of beauty, and in realm where there was a strain of Numenorean, I would hazard that she did have children, and noble ones).

We also know that Nandorin (certainly, in the First Age, in accounts suggesting refugees from Beleriand dwelt there) and Sylvan Elves lived for a long time around the region, and into the Second Age at least, in their harbour of Edhellond. There's mention of Amroth and Galadriel having either dwelt, or passed through there. Galadriel is mentioned as having taken refuge there during the War of Elves and Sauron. In fact, there is suggestion of an Elven presence into the Third Age, and materials suggest that Elves did, indeed, depart by the Straight Road to Valinor from Edhellond. As noted by Legolas in LotR, in conversation with Imrahil, who he saw as having ties to his own realm. Given all this, a blending of Elves and Men was likely for their close cohabitation.

It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water. (Legolas to Imrahil)

Mithrellas, was Sylvan, and had been in the company of Nimrodel (Amroth, son of Amdir's beloved, with all that stuff about tossing himself into the sea when Nimrodel vanished).

The union of Mithrellas and Imrazor and implications for the Choice of the Peredhil here is unclear. Given Mithrellas's disappearance, shortly after her children were born, there seems little opportunity for any of her children to have chosen an immortal life. Further, given her Sylvan heritage, her ties to Valinor were never made, and, perhaps, that has something to do with this as well.

[B][I]Eärendil is Túor's son & father of Elros (First King of Númenor)and Elrond, their mother being Elwing daughter of Dior, of Beren and Lúthien: so the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share. Elros chose to be a King and 'longaevus' but mortal, so all his descendants are mortal, and of a specially noble race, but with dwindling longevity...

Not quite right--even though it's from a Letter. The Line of Elros (beyond Elros, who lived 500 years) did steadily increase until the noontide of Numenor. The dwindling occurred in Middle Earth, and with Aragorn (190) he reckoned at about half the span of Elros's line at the noontide. He did, however, have a full longevity as gifted to the mainstream folk of Numenor at the noontide--thrice that of normal men.

so Aragorn (who, however, has a greater life-span than his contemporaries, double, though not the original Númenórean treble, that of Men). Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children – with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrían dtr. of Galadriel – have to make their choices. Arwen is not a 're-incarnation' of Lúthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Lúthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she 'makes the choice of Lúthien', so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told: they delay their choice, and remain for a while.-Letter 153

This stuff is good and I am comfortable with it. (I dunno, Tolkien's own letters sometimes just don't square with what he, himself wrote, in LotR! See prior comments)

It's in a very early draft of the Quenta Silmarillion we get this statement.

'Then Manwë gave judgement and he said: 'To Eärendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'

Yes. Though as I said--the Arwen anomaly, therefore, implications for the Choice of the Peredhil--more broadly.

It's also possible that the story of Mithrellas and Imrazor is just a legend made up to explain the distinctly elvish appearance of the Princes of Dol Amroth. It's possible that as in the alternative account they were descendants of Elros, who happened to retain the elvish look more than most.

I'm not sure about this (see Legolas's comment, upstream) and there is a second account, but only of Imrzor, whose presence at Dol Amroth was founded by Elendil's blessing, not bloodline.

Whether some of the daughters of Gondor married Imrahil's line is unclear. We don't have details of that. I'd have imagined that (given Silmarien's founding of the Line of the Faithful in Numenor--the entire premise was that female bloodlines were just as valid), I'd have imagined, that after Earnil, they had a really good look at Dol Amroth for progenitors of the throne.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I'm comfortable with the idea.

But there's, as you point out, still the question of Mithrelas, who was with Imrazor, very Numenorean was he, and with him long enough to bear him Galador (male, the founder of the Line of the Princes of Dol Amroth) and Gimith ('star-mist' a really beautiful Elvish name. We never found out what happened to her, and how many children, and to whom she bore them. But with that kind of beauty, and in realm where there was a strain of Numenorean, I would hazard that she did have children, and noble ones).

We also know that Nandorin (certainly, in the First Age, in accounts suggesting refugees from Beleriand dwelt there) and Sylvan Elves lived for a long time around the region, and into the Second Age at least, in their harbour of Edhellond. There's mention of Amroth and Galadriel having either dwelt, or passed through there. Galadriel is mentioned as having taken refuge there during the War of Elves and Sauron. In fact, there is suggestion of an Elven presence into the Third Age, and materials suggest that Elves did, indeed, depart by the Straight Road to Valinor from Edhellond. As noted by Legolas in LotR, in conversation with Imrahil, who he saw as having ties to his own realm. Given all this, a blending of Elves and Men was likely for their close cohabitation.

It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water. (Legolas to Imrahil)

Mithrellas, was Sylvan, and had been in the company of Nimrodel (Amroth, son of Amdir's beloved, with all that stuff about tossing himself into the sea when Nimrodel vanished).

The union of Mithrellas and Imrazor and implications for the Choice of the Peredhil here is unclear. Given Mithrellas's disappearance, shortly after her children were born, there seems little opportunity for any of her children to have chosen an immortal life. Further, given her Sylvan heritage, her ties to Valinor were never made, and, perhaps, that has something to do with this as well.

This would mean ignoring the early stories about Mandos' decree.

All those with mortal blood are mortal unless granted exception. The children of Imrazor would have mortal blood and not being granted any leeway would be mortal. I don't see why there would be any confusion.

Not quite right--even though it's from a Letter. The Line of Elros (beyond Elros, who lived 500 years) did steadily increase until the noontide of Numenor. The dwindling occurred in Middle Earth, and with Aragorn (190) he reckoned at about half the span of Elros's line at the noontide. He did, however, have a full longevity as gifted to the mainstream folk of Numenor at the noontide--thrice that of normal men.




This stuff is good and I am comfortable with it. (I dunno, Tolkien's own letters sometimes just don't square with what he, himself wrote, in LotR! See prior comments)

Tolkien often changed his mind and redrafted things, sometimes he made mistakes and other times he wanted to put out two different versions.

Yes. Though as I said--the Arwen anomaly, therefore, implications for the Choice of the Peredhil--more broadly.

Arwen is not an anomaly, because we are the only account we have of the decree says this.

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me.

Arwen and the twins were granted 'other doom'. Not so with the children of Imrazor so they would remain mortal.

I'm not sure about this (see Legolas's comment, upstream) and there is a second account, but only of Imrzor, whose presence at Dol Amroth was founded by Elendil's blessing, not bloodline.

Whether some of the daughters of Gondor married Imrahil's line is unclear. We don't have details of that. I'd have imagined that (given Silmarien's founding of the Line of the Faithful in Numenor--the entire premise was that female bloodlines were just as valid), I'd have imagined, that after Earnil, they had a really good look at Dol Amroth for progenitors of the throne.

Well Perandur killed any chance of the Council accepting someone through the female line when he said Gondor only accepts Salic Succession. Firiel and her descendants would have the best claim in this case.

As for Legolas' comments he could just be mistaking High Numenorean descent with recent elvish ancestry. Legolas is not well traveled to Gondor and knows little of what they were like in their height. Aragorn himself when dressed up looked more like an Elf Lord than any mortal man.

I personally tend to favour Tolkien's other version where the Princes of Dol Amroth were Elendil's kin. They were a House that kept their blood very pure and lived more in tune with the Elvish lifestyle.

This view would help explain their position as the highest nobility in Gondor. If they were close relatives to Elendil, then it would make sense for him to make them princes. This also parallels Aragorn making Faramir a prince.

Not only that, but we here Finrod mention how Elf/Man unions would not be permitted often by history, unless for some great doom. Imrazor and Mithrellas was not for some great doom. I am also suspicious that an Elf would abandon her children so readily.

Prince Imrahil to me is an example of Numenor at it's height where the Men were indistinguishable from elves.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This would mean ignoring the early stories about Mandos' decree.

All those with mortal blood are mortal unless granted exception. The children of Imrazor would have mortal blood and not being granted any leeway would be mortal. I don't see why there would be any confusion.

I'm arguing that Mandos's decree may not be taken, quite so literally--what I mean by the 'Arwen Anomaly' (I'm using proper noun form, on purpose), is the precedent set that is discordant with Mandos's initial decree in Valinor (though as you point out, with your citation, there was a modification or addendum he made to his initial decree. Nice materials, btw).

Mandos *specifically* says (in the Silmarillion, when Earendil made it to Valinor) that the --sons-- of Earendil and Elwing are to be covered by his Decree.

Arwen--female--yet, she had the Choice of the Peredhil.

I might argue that we should merely interpret Mandos as commenting upon the Peredil he knew would come of the Half Elves he knew *of*, and that it is unclear what is meant for unions of Elves and Men beyond the Line of Earendil.

Tolkien often changed his mind and redrafted things, sometimes he made mistakes and other times he wanted to put out two different versions.

Exactly. I wonder what he would say about Gilmith and Galador, daughter and son of Mithrellas.

Arwen is not an anomaly, because we are the only account we have of the decree says this.

See prior.

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me.

Only Arwen, really, was granted 'other doom' (access to immortality, given Mandos's Decree for the *sons* of Earendil. Elladan and Elrohir were sons and covered, quite consistently, by Mandos's initial decree (but, here again, another inconsistency in the mythology. Elrond specifically says to Aragorn--Tale of Aragorn and Arwen--that **all** his children needed to depart with him to get immortality. This makes no real sense when looking at what Mandos's decree initially posited. Surely, (theoretically), the sons coulda just said 'see ya in 50 dad--we wanna hang around a bit longer. Galadriel did. So did you. So we wrote to Mandos and said 'I wanna live forever, but dad's boat's goin' too early)

Not so with the children of Imrazor so they would remain mortal.

Yes. But provisionally. What we don't know is 'would they have', had Mithrellas not disappeared, and, for example, chucked her kids on a boat at Edhellond, to go into the Uttermost West.

I doubt, highly, that the boat would have been refused access to Valinor, don't you think? My point goes to 'which way the kids go'--I like ma more than pa--daddy Numenorean's a bit of a hard *** and likes too much drink and wants all that human-y stuff. I like ma's lamenting singing. She makes Waybread and I like what the Lady Galadriel said to me in Lorien. Lorien's way cooler for me (said Gilmith) than daddy's sword stuff'.

Well Perandur killed any chance of the Council accepting someone through the female line when he said Gondor only accepts Salic Succession. Firiel and her descendants would have the best claim in this case.

I really wonder about all that Salic Succession stuff. This is a contravention of the Laws of Succession, modified in Numenor. Somewhat presumptious of any Gondor-ian delegate, to do this. I wonder. I need to look more closely at materials on the Stewardship and Gondor's line of succession before I comment further.

Not only that, but we here Finrod mention how Elf/Man unions would not be permitted often by history, unless for some great doom. Imrazor and Mithrellas was not for some great doom. I am also suspicious that an Elf would abandon her children so readily.

I wonder about this too. I think Finrod would not be speaking of those of the Eldar or Elves who broke with tradition. I think he was speaking more like a monarch, like Queen Lizzy, England, and all that stuff about 'princes do thy duty and don't marry a commoner'. There must have been some radical elements amongst the Elves, from time to time, surely.

I do like the idea, though, of the females of the Line of Silmarien of Andunie, in Gondor--all the second and subsequent born--Princesses of Gondor, trundling off to marry Imrahil's Elvishy crew. Seems quite likely, as I think you suggested.

I really need to look a little more closely at 'what' exactly, they did after Earnur. I wonder if Tolkien ever commented about Elros's blood being present in Imrahil's line. One would of thought it would have been mentioned, by *someone* in LotR at the Pelenor?

Prince Imrahil to me is an example of Numenor at it's height where the Men were indistinguishable from elves.

Interesting. I'd have to agree with you on this. He was 'fair' enough that Legolas was quite taken by him. Certainly, Aragorn, during his first 50 years prior to meeting Arwen in Lorien the second time, must have spent time in Dol Amroth, visiting and looking about, and perhaps making renown enough for himself, that he could pull a favour from Imrahil more easily. As far as Dol Amroth was concerned, a very long time ago, Isildur's and Anarion's line vanished. I wonder how 'lore wise' Imrahil actually was in his Princedom. As someone of such prominence in Gondor in a legitimate Princedom, he was not going to easily take orders from Aragorn, or, not lightly, accept the claim Aragorn Made. I suspect Aragorn fostered relations and got renown for himself (as noted in Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, though they did not mention 'exactly where' he got his reputation).