Immortality and the sons of Elrond

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Apparently they did not. In fact it would appear that the grandson lived longer than the son of that union [125 years to 143 for the grandson]. In letter 153 Tolkien says, "the problem of the Half-elven becomes united in one line. The view is that the Half-elven have a power of (irrevocable) choice, which may be delayed but not permanently, which kin's fate they will share."

Interesting. His comment in Letters really does jell with what we know of Arwen's fate, and the idea of deferred choice makes sense.

On Dior, I may have made a mistake in my writings, upstream. He married Nimloth (this name is so confusing in the mythology. This was a Nimloth of Doriath, I think, and Elwing's brothers were Elurid and Elurin, who were killed in the Sack of Doriath). I'm not clear that Dior was Mortal, but always thought he must have been because Luthien relinquished her immortality for Beren.

In fact it would appear that the grandson lived longer than the son of that union [125 years to 143 for the grandson]

Who are you talking about here?

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Who are you talking about here?

Galador, the son of the Elf woman, and his son. Galador lived for 125 years and his son lived for 143 years. So the son, Galador, had a shorter life span than the grandson, Galador's son.

In People of M-E it is said, ""the Hurinionath were not in the direct line of descent from Elendil, they were ultimately of royal origin, and had in any case kept their blood more pure than most other families in the later ages". [ch. 7] This does not imply that they were the purest noble house in Gondor, only that they were one of the few who were nearly so. The Lords of Dol Amroth were probably cousins of Elendil or at least were married into his family as early as before the destruction of Númenor. I'm of the opinion that the Stewards married into the royal house some time before the end of Gondor's kings.

Regarding Éowyn, Morwen who was a High Woman from Dol Amroth, married a Rohirrim and her children were Thingol & his sister Théodwyn. Between them were 3 children, Éowyn & her brother Éomer, their mother being Théodwyn, their uncle Théoden and his deceased son Théodred. They were all of Dúnedain descent, kinsmen of the Lords of Dol Amroth. Éomer and Éowyn married back into Gondor's high houses; Éomer with Imrahil's daughter, and his sister Éowyn into the Steward's House with Faramir.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

In People of M-E it is said, ""the Hurinionath were not in the direct line of descent from Elendil, they were ultimately of royal origin, and had in any case kept their blood more pure than most other families in the later ages". [ch. 7] This does not imply that they were the purest noble house in Gondor, only that they were one of the few who were nearly so. The Lords of Dol Amroth were probably cousins of Elendil or at least were married into his family as early as before the destruction of Númenor. I'm of the opinion that the Stewards married into the royal house some time before the end of Gondor's kings.

This is from a draft and it does not make the appendix. We can speculate on the reason, but Tolkien did decide to leave it out.

The Numenoreans were never ones to have big families or even always got married at all. Then with the wars, the pestilence and others things many of the noble families would have ended. Minas Morgul had falled and Osgiliath was a ruin. Then there was the terrible kinslaying, which if anything like the War of the Roses (which it appears to be) then several lines would have been wiped out.

The Stewards seemed to have been chosen in part, because they had no claim; a neutral noble House if you will.

As I said before even at the time of Aragorn's return there were other Houses of greater nobility.

I can see the warring Princes of Gondor settling for a noble House, but one with no threat of ever being able to claim the throne.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This is from a draft and it does not make the appendix.

Certainly it did not, but you yourself are not averse to quoting Tolkien's words that have not made it into say LotR or it's Appendixes. Is there a problem you have with the quote because it's not in the appendix? I'd find it hard to think this would be the case, especially with you or many another people when LotR is not the sole source made use of.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Numenoreans were never ones to have big families or even always got married at all.

Correct. They would have children late too. In PoM-E, chapter 7 for example, it is said that Turin l "was wedded twice and had several children ( a thing already rare and remarkable among the nobles of Gondor); but only the last, a child born in his old age, was a son."

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Then with the wars, the pestilence and others things many of the noble families would have ended.

Yes. In the Kin-Strife itself, "much of the best blood in Gondor was shed" [Appendix A] There is also the infighting within the royal household itself leading to possible heirs abandoning their noble stations.

""the descendants of the kings had become few. Their numbers had been greatly diminished in the Kin-strife; whereas since that time the kings had become jealous and watchful OF THOSE NEAR KIN. Often those on whom SUSPICION FELL had fled to Umbar and there joined the rebels; while others had RENOUNCED THEIR LINEAGE and taken wives NOT of Númenorean blood."

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Then there was the terrible kinslaying, which if anything like the War of the Roses (which it appears to be) then several lines would have been wiped out.

Not only wiped out, but many renounced their lineage as well and began to take non-Dúnedain wives.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The Stewards seemed to have been chosen in part, because they had no claim; a neutral noble House if you will.

Indeed, nor others "whose claim all would allow".

Or do you mean chosen by the Kings to be Stewards?

Originally Posted by cellurdur

As I said before even at the time of Aragorn's return there were other Houses of greater nobility.

Not an argument.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I can see the warring Princes of Gondor settling for a noble House, but one with no threat of ever being able to claim the throne.

I think it is clear there is no claimant because Eärnur, "left no children. No MALE descendant of CLEAR title (OR nearly PURE BLOOD) of Elendil could be discovered." [Heirs of Elendil, ch. 7] In Gondor kingship passed through the male line. So it did not matter if the Steward at that time was the son of the King's sister, he could not take the throne. Gondor's Council told King Arvedui, "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil... In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the SONS only" [Appendix A] In the end the crown was given to Eärnil, "the son of Siriondil, son of Calimmacil, son of Arciryas brother of Narmacil ll."

What is clear to me is that those who could be claimants were hardly pure like the children of Castamir for instance, "The sons of Kastamir and others of his kin, having fled from Gondor in 1447, set up a small kingdom in Umbar... they married women of Harad and had in three generations lost most of their Númenorean blood" [ch.7]. So since "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow;" [Appendix A] there was no Kingship allotted. The Kin-strife was also at the backs of the minds of the Council.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Certainly it did not, but you yourself are not averse to quoting Tolkien's words that have not made it into say LotR or it's Appendixes. Is there a problem you have with the quote because it's not in the appendix? I'd find it hard to think this would be the case, especially with you or many another people when LotR is not the sole source made use of.

Yes, because it is in a draft and he chose to leave it out. There is a difference between a note he left about a topic and a draft he discarded with what was published. Or else Strider would still be a Hobbit and the Sons of Elrond would have led the Eorl's charge. In the case of the Sons of Elrond riding to save Gondor, I don't accept it as much as I would love to.

Correct. They would have children late too. In PoM-E, chapter 7 for example, it is said that Turin l "was wedded twice and had several children ( a thing already rare and remarkable among the nobles of Gondor); but only the last, a child born in his old age, was a son."



Yes. In the Kin-Strife itself, "much of the best blood in Gondor was shed" [Appendix A] There is also the infighting within the royal household itself leading to possible heirs abandoning their noble stations.

""the descendants of the kings had become few. Their numbers had been greatly diminished in the Kin-strife; whereas since that time the kings had become jealous and watchful OF THOSE NEAR KIN. Often those on whom SUSPICION FELL had fled to Umbar and there joined the rebels; while others had RENOUNCED THEIR LINEAGE and taken wives NOT of Númenorean blood."

Not only wiped out, but many renounced their lineage as well and began to take non-Dúnedain wives.

Yes this supports the few families being left with Royal Blood.

Indeed, nor others "whose claim all would allow".

Or do you mean chosen by the Kings to be Stewards?

I mean both. The families with claims, that were not strong enough probably would not accept a rival to rule as Steward. Hence to stop future infighting you choose a family with a weak claim to rule.

Not an argument.

No it is. The families with strong claims to the throne would probably be some of the greatest nobles in the land. The Princes of Dol Amroth were the greatest nobles in Gondor, but there were others still about and greater than the House of Stewards. Considering the Stewards had ruled Gondor for a 1000 years, but STILL were not regarded as greater than these families is something.

I think it is clear there is no claimant because Eärnur, "left no children. No MALE descendant of CLEAR title (OR nearly PURE BLOOD) of Elendil could be discovered." [Heirs of Elendil, ch. 7] In Gondor kingship passed through the male line. So it did not matter if the Steward at that time was the son of the King's sister, he could not take the throne. Gondor's Council told King Arvedui, "The crown and royalty of Gondor belongs soley to the heirs of Meneldil... In Gondor this heritage is reckoned through the SONS only" [Appendix A] In the end the crown was given to Eärnil, "the son of Siriondil, son of Calimmacil, son of Arciryas brother of Narmacil ll."

What is clear to me is that those who could be claimants were hardly pure like the children of Castamir for instance, "The sons of Kastamir and others of his kin, having fled from Gondor in 1447, set up a small kingdom in Umbar... they married women of Harad and had in three generations lost most of their Númenorean blood" [ch.7]. So since "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow;" [Appendix A] there was no Kingship allotted. The Kin-strife was also at the backs of the minds of the Council.

This is part of the reason, but Arnor puts forward the claim the female line first. This implies that even in the female line, there was not many claimants.

It's in reply to this that Gondor makes the decision to choose Earnil a descendant through the male line over Arvedui's female line claim (amongst other claims).

It seems almost impossible that the Princes of Dol Amroth were not descendants of Anarion through a female line at this point. I question only if the House of Stewards were too.

I don't think they were, because
1. They were not one of the great families
2. Everyone agreed to let them rule as Stewards.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Yes, because it is in a draft and he chose to leave it out. There is a difference between a note he left about a topic and a draft he discarded with what was published.

True he did leave it out, but I do not think that his doing so necessarily means, at least in this case, that the Stewards were not related to Anárion. In Appendix A when we are given the rulers of the Dúnedain kingdoms in exile, the Stewards are clearly written with the Kings under Heirs of Anárion, as regards The Southern Line.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I mean both. The families with claims, that were not strong enough probably would not accept a rival to rule as Steward.

Since when did the other nobles start choosing the Stewards who, "took office with the oath, 'to hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return.'" [App. A]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Hence to stop future infighting you choose a family with a weak claim to rule.

I'm not sure I get what you mean here. What kind of politics is this? Generally if a Prince wanted to secure himself from rivals he'd destroy the families of all would be rivals. It is known that Pelendur the Steward, for instance "played the chief part" [App. A] in the rejection of Arvedui's claim to the crown and the installment of Eärnil with whom the other Dúnedain approved.

They all had a weak claim to rule as Peneldur made clear when he rejected Arvedui's claim thus not only stopping his clan from claiming the kingship but the other clans who also had a royal lineage but not through the male line.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

No it is. The families with strong claims to the throne would probably be some of the greatest nobles in the land. The Princes of Dol Amroth were the greatest nobles in Gondor, but there were others still about and greater than the House of Stewards.

It is said, "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow;" [App. A] and that the Stewards were nearly as pure as the kings. If there were purer houses, and houses of greater nobility, would they not take the station of king? They, like the Stewards, in my opinion were not related to the kings through the male line. Those who may have been descendants through the male line were not pure enough as they, "taken wives not of Númenorean blood." [App. A]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Considering the Stewards had ruled Gondor for a 1000 years, but STILL were not regarded as greater than these families is something.

This is because the kings installed them as such and they became hereditary.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

This is part of the reason, but Arnor puts forward the claim the female line first. This implies that even in the female line, there was not many claimants.

I do not think so. Let's be honest, there were not many claimants anyway, but again, Pelendur made sure that no one in the female line could take the crown when he rejected Arvedui's claim. His argument was not that there was no one to be found in the female line who could take the throne, it was that in keeping with tradition in Gondor, only in the male line were kings taken. There were certainly people of the male line, but as we no they could not be selected because they were too mixed with lesser men.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

It seems almost impossible that the Princes of Dol Amroth were not descendants of Anarion through a female line at this point. I question only if the House of Stewards were too.

I think it's possible both were, and possibly all of the noble houses remaining in Gondor with him intermarriage was almost certain to happen.

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I don't think they were, because
1. They were not one of the great families
2. Everyone agreed to let them rule as Stewards.

I do not get your 2 points here. Explain the 2nd one and also explain the first.

"Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was clear that there was much fighting, and in the early years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally be a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Númenórean king was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor." [Letter 244, pp. 323-4]

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

True he did leave it out, but I do not think that his doing so necessarily means, at least in this case, that the Stewards were not related to Anárion. In Appendix A when we are given the rulers of the Dúnedain kingdoms in exile, the Stewards are clearly written with the Kings under Heirs of Anárion, as regards The Southern Line.

This probably has more to do with the Stewards acting with all the powers of the King rather than any ancestry.

Since when did the other nobles start choosing the Stewards who, "took office with the oath, 'to hold rod and rule in the name of the king, until he shall return.'" [App. A]

The nobles would have had to agree for the Stewards to keep ruling. The Civil Wars in both Arnor and Gondor are proof that the Numenoreans were not always prepared to follow the law.

I'm not sure I get what you mean here. What kind of politics is this? Generally if a Prince wanted to secure himself from rivals he'd destroy the families of all would be rivals. It is known that Pelendur the Steward, for instance "played the chief part" [App. A] in the rejection of Arvedui's claim to the crown and the installment of Eärnil with whom the other Dúnedain approved.

They all had a weak claim to rule as Peneldur made clear when he rejected Arvedui's claim thus not only stopping his clan from claiming the kingship but the other clans who also had a royal lineage but not through the male line.

I think you are confusing the timeline. Earnil's claim was certainly not weak. He was of the House of Anarion. The problem is that Arvedui had a stronger claim.

The political logic is that there are a few Houses with strong claims to the throne like the Prince of Dol Amroth and others. These Houses cannot agree on who should be king, so they agree to let the Steward continue ruling until the matter is resolved. A bit like the crisis Scotland had after the death of the Maid of Norway. They called upon Edward Longshanks to settle the matter.

It is said, "no claimant to the crown could be found who was of pure blood, or whose claim all would allow;" [App. A] and that the Stewards were nearly as pure as the kings. If there were purer houses, and houses of greater nobility, would they not take the station of king? They, like the Stewards, in my opinion were not related to the kings through the male line. Those who may have been descendants through the male line were not pure enough as they, "taken wives not of Númenorean blood." [App. A]

The answer to that is NO. Just, because they were purer, more noble Houses with a better claim does not mean they would have been chosen for the throne. There was enough disagreement that none of the Great Houses like say Dol Amroth could get all the nobility to agree. Consequently it's easier to have a lesser House rule than have another kinslaying.

The reasoning being that the House of Stewards would never be powerful enough to claim the kingship. As things stand now we know that Dol Amroth at least would have seceded and possibly other areas too.

This is because the kings installed them as such and they became hereditary.

The king installed them us such, but it was never intended for them to rule for 1000 years with no king. Gondor Dol Amroth had become virtually independent at this time.

I imagine the other great Houses were content to keep the Stewards, because it was better than a Civil War.

I do not think so. Let's be honest, there were not many claimants anyway, but again, Pelendur made sure that no one in the female line could take the crown when he rejected Arvedui's claim. His argument was not that there was no one to be found in the female line who could take the throne, it was that in keeping with tradition in Gondor, only in the male line were kings taken. There were certainly people of the male line, but as we no they could not be selected because they were too mixed with lesser men.

I never said there were no other claimants, but there were few of them that met the criteria and after Earnur disappeared, there probably was none from the male line.

I think it's possible both were, and possibly all of the noble houses remaining in Gondor with him intermarriage was almost certain to happen.

Possible, but by no means a certainty. The Numenoreans would not have illegitimate children and had a very low birth rate. With the obsession some had about blood purity the royal family would possibly keep marrying back into each other. Numenor had a law forbidding the heir to the throne from marrying a non-descendant of Elros. Gondor may not have had a strict law, but I would imagine it would be the custom.

I do not get your 2 points here. Explain the 2nd one and also explain the first.

"Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the P. of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was clear that there was much fighting, and in the early years of A.'s reign expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these would normally be a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Númenórean king was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would [be] the chief counsellor." [Letter 244, pp. 323-4]

1. The first point is simple. At the time the House of Hurin were raised to Stewards they were still not one of the Great Families. It's only after Aragorn returns that he raises them above all other nobility except the Prince of Dol Amroth. A House with close ties to Anarion would definitely be one of the Great Houses. Just look at the power the Lords of Andunie had.

2. When a group of powerful Houses are all competing for rule, they sometimes let a less powerful House/person rule as a compromise. Usually, because they don't feel the person will ever be a threat (this is part of the reason Hitler was able to come to power).

Say for Instance the Lord of Dol Amroth and the Lord of Calenardhon (fictional Lord) had the two strongest claims through the female line. Both are powerful and important families. The Prince of Dol Amroth does not agree on the Lord of Calenardhon and vice versa. To keep the peace they decide on letting the Steward keep ruling, safe in the knowledge that his claim and power base is too weak to take the throne.

This is a possible reason for why Denethor was bitter that in Gondor the House of Stewards could never take the throne even after a 1000 years.