Elven Characteristics

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

That's a lot to do with 5ft being considered short. The difference between a man, who is 5'10 and another who is 5'3 is huge. If Elendil walked past you at 7'10 and then later Isildur walked past you at 7'2 the comparative difference is much smaller.

Or even in real life if you saw two men one being 6'6 and the other 6'1 you are likely to refer to both as 6ft.

Well, no, I actually wouldn't, as 6'6 is in fact noticeably taller. And for me, I think you can probably substitute most people; I really don't think I've ever heard anyone describe height the way you're doing here. Come on, are you sure you're not just, well, stretching things?

I'm not saying either version is the "right" one, understand, just that they do seem to me to be clearly contradictory. I don't see why this should be a problem- authors always do rewrite things, and play with different ideas, and so on.

Also- I guess I read your post in a hurry, because the first time I missed where you said "Christopher Tolkien has the right himself to define what is canon". As far as I know, this isn't the case, at least not in a way that would apply here. I mean, yes, he could have chosen not to publish, or make available, any of this. Again, I don't think that's relevant.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, no, I actually wouldn't, as 6'6 is in fact noticeably taller. And for me, I think you can probably substitute most people; I really don't think I've ever heard anyone describe height the way you're doing here. Come on, are you sure you're not just, well, stretching things?

I'm not saying either version is the "right" one, understand, just that they do seem to me to be clearly contradictory. I don't see why this should be a problem- authors always do rewrite things, and play with different ideas, and so on.

Also- I guess I read your post in a hurry, because the first time I missed where you said "Christopher Tolkien has the right himself to define what is canon". As far as I know, this isn't the case, at least not in a way that would apply here. I mean, yes, he could have chosen not to publish, or make available, any of this. Again, I don't think that's relevant.

This is from Tolkien's will.

’Upon Trust to allow my son Christopher full access to the same* in order that he may act as my Literary Executor with full power to publish edit alter rewrite or complete any work of mine which may be unpublished at my death or to destroy the whole or any part or parts of any such unpublished works as he in his absolute discretion may think fit and subject thereto’

*Unpublished works.

Christopher Tolkien may rarely if at all use it, but he still has the power to define what is canon. Thus I think anything he publishes should be given weight over all other materials found.



Back on topic this way of describing height happens fairly often. For instance when talking about the tall players in womens tennis they will say the new generation of 6ft players. Now the tallest may be around 6'3, but the general term of 6ft is used.

I agree that describing someone as 6'6 as a 6 footer may be pushing it, but I don't think it's rare for someone 6'4 to be described as a 6 footer when in a group with other people over 6 foot.

Here is an example of an article using the phrase here about a football team.
And Eagles skipper Jedinak is ready for another battle with Tony Pulis' team of six-footers in tomorrow's replay as they attempt to secure a fourth-round tie with Manchester City.

Now the tallest person in that team is over 6'7 and another is 6'6.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I agree that describing someone as 6'6 as a 6 footer may be pushing it, but I don't think it's rare for someone 6'4 to be described as a 6 footer when in a group with other people over 6 foot.

That is absurd. I am 6'2'' and my brother is 6'5". No one has ever described me as a 6 footer, and certainly no one has ever said that to my brother (who also weighs about 290 lbs -- he's usually referred to as a monster of one sort or another). Perhaps people who are 5'11'' might strive to be called a "6 footer", but when you are taller, it is evident to just about everyone.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

That is absurd. I am 6'2'' and my brother is 6'5". No one has ever described me as a 6 footer, and certainly no one has ever said that to my brother (who also weighs about 290 lbs -- he's usually referred to as a monster of one sort or another). Perhaps people who are 5'11'' might strive to be called a "6 footer", but when you are taller, it is evident to just about everyone.

I have already given examples of this happening fairly often.

I think perhaps you need to look at the definition of what a six footer is.

six-footer
n
1. a person who is at least six feet tall

I emphasise the AT LEAST part.

Just have a look for yourself and you will see Edward IV the tallest ever English king commonly being referred to as a six-footer.

[Nerwen]

cellurdur, having seen the quote in context also, I don't understand why you suppose doing so makes any difference. I don't say- and never said- the quote necessarily means "Elendil was exactly seven feet tall". I say that at the time Tolkien wrote that Isildur and Elendil had both "been seven feet tall", he could not have really meant Elendil was almost eight feet tall.

Further, it is not necessary for someone to be extraordinarily, freakishly tall for him or her to be regarded as tall. You keep saying it is, but that doesn't make it so.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

cellurdur, having seen the quote in context also, I don't understand why you suppose doing so makes any difference. I don't say- and never said- the quote necessarily means "Elendil was exactly seven feet tall". I say that at the time Tolkien wrote that Isildur and Elendil had both "been seven feet tall", he could not have really meant Elendil was almost eight feet tall.

Further, it is not necessary for someone to be extraordinarily, freakishly tall for him or her to be regarded as tall. You keep saying it is, but that doesn't make it so.

Uhh why not could he have meant that Elendil was 7'10? 10 inches taller than the average is not freakishly tall for the tallest man in a country. Elendil being 7'10 is no different than a man being 6'8 today. Average height for a Uk male is about 5'10; somebody who is 6'8 would gain the nickname the tall not somebody 6'2.

So what height do you think would be acceptable then for the tallest man in a country, where the average height was 7ft?

So what do you think is a good estimate for a tall Numenorean if the average is 7ft? How about an exceptionally tall Numenorean? I am beaten by the logic. An average Numenorean is 7ft tall and one of the tallest Numenoreans is wait for it also 7ft tall. Elendil the Not so Tall at best was an inch or two taller than the average Numenorean makes perfect sense. I am finished replying to this topic.

[Lissë]

Thank you, Galin and Nerwen. This was very helpful. So elven women wore their hair braided? And Fingon as well? How do you think those braids looked like? Tolkien might have known photos of Native Americans, but since he was focused on Europe I guess we can exclude inspiration from that source. Unfortunately there are no illustration of Celtic hairstyles, and in the Middle Age women wore veils.