Fanfiction: the definition of Mary-Sue

[Nerwen]

Agan, I think this whole thread has been about fan-fiction Mary Sues- and a lot of the reason people complain about them is their habit of taking over from the actual characters, in a general "anything you can do, I can do better" way. They're more beautiful! More talented! They have bigger and better angst! They're the ones who really save the world!

When you start applying the same criteria to characters in original fiction... then, yes, it becomes problematic. Not that "canon Sues" don't exist, because of course they do, but the definition is often stretched so far that it becomes meaningless. Not only that, but some people definitely do seem to use a simple equation of "female protagonist = Mary Sue".

[Aganzir]

Yeah I got the impression, but I see no reason why serious literary criticism shouldn't be applied to fanfiction as well. I rarely read it myself but I'm quite aware of the rise and fall of the concept of Mary Sue over the years, and it baffles me because although there's talk of Gary Stu also, he doesn't seem to get nearly the same amount of hate.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Yeah I got the impression, but I see no reason why serious literary criticism shouldn't be applied to fanfiction as well. I rarely read it myself but I'm quite aware of the rise and fall of the concept of Mary Sue over the years, and it baffles me because although there's talk of Gary Stu also, he doesn't seem to get nearly the same amount of hate.

There are fewer male OCs in fan fiction, probably because most of the writers are female, so Gary Stu doesn't show up nearly as much. Also, I think he's generally considered to be a subset of Mary, if you see what I mean. In fact, some people refer to characters of either sex as "Mary Sue".

[Faramir Jones]

Would people here consider a lot of the above film to just be bad fanfiction, which happened to end up on the big screen because of PJ having power and money?

If so, what do people think of the character of Tauriel being something like a Mary-Sue? She (along with Legolas) slaughters a lot of orcs, and is involved in a love triangle...

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

If so, what do people think of the character of Tauriel being something like a Mary-Sue? She (along with Legolas) slaughters a lot of orcs, and is involved in a love triangle...

They (Legolas and Tauriel) are the Neo and Trinity of Middle-earth, complete with an incredible use of weaponry and defying gravity. After all, Agent Smith is already in Rivendell.

[MCRmyGirl4eva]

I read a LOT of fanfiction. *don't judge me* The most annoying thing is finding fics that have a lot of ooc-ness. I also HATE OC's. However, once in a while, I come across a fic that's well-written and stays in character. Best feeling in the world.

Also, thought on female OCs, there aren't very many females in LOTR (Well, not in comparison to the male characters, anyway). So, when you get the OC's that aren't just the writers putting themselves in the story, it may be as an attempt to balance the characters' genders. After all, the only three PROMINENT characters in LOTR are Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn. All of whom are very good and complex characters, but the series still remains a sausagefest.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by MCRmyGirl4eva

I read a LOT of fanfiction. *don't judge me* The most annoying thing is finding fics that have a lot of ooc-ness. I also HATE OC's. However, once in a while, I come across a fic that's well-written and stays in character. Best feeling in the world.

Also, thought on female OCs, there aren't very many females in LOTR (Well, not in comparison to the male characters, anyway). So, when you get the OC's that aren't just the writers putting themselves in the story, it may be as an attempt to balance the characters' genders. After all, the only three PROMINENT characters in LOTR are Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn. All of whom are very good and complex characters, but the series still remains a sausagefest.

Surely that's how Tolkien wrote it in the first place. Would some of those who make such 'sausagefest' criticisms have a similar complaint about another work containing mostly female characters, feeling that there should be more male ones included as a balancing act?

The best way to deal with this is to produce new works, such as Suzanne Collins' Hunger Games trilogy, with its heroine, Katniss Everdeen.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Would people here consider a lot of the above film to just be bad fanfiction, which happened to end up on the big screen because of PJ having power and money?

That view was prevalent with us when we left the cinema.

Originally Posted by MCRmyGirl4eva

After all, the only three PROMINENT characters in LOTR are Galadriel, Arwen, and Eowyn. All of whom are very good and complex characters, but the series still remains a sausagefest.

I'd say Goldberry is more prominent than Arwen, who is not the most complex character I've seen anyway.

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Would some of those who make such 'sausagefest' criticisms have a similar complaint about another work containing mostly female characters, feeling that there should be more male ones included as a balancing act?

No because it's about representation and there is a vast imbalance between the numbers of male and female characters/leads in literature and films (Beighley & Smith, Flood etc). There is simply no need to bring more male characters into the business as they get the most attention anyway.