The Inherent Incompatability of Morgoth and Sauron

[Sarumian]

The fact Sauron could delude himself this way means that he had/obtained a very wrong idea of Eru. Not only Eru's motives and attitudes but of Eru's nature. He thought about Eru as if the latter was somewhat a first among Ainur, not an ultramundane spirit, having all of the universe, Ainur including, existing in his mind.

Therefore Sauron perceived the music as an outline rather than something that had decided Ea's destiny. That were the prerequisites for Sauron's delusion, esp. his idea that Eru can abandon Ea.

Well, it seems at some point Sauron decided he had a better understanding of matters than Melkor. The question is when. If it happened before Melkor's final downfall, it is unclear why than Sauron did not abandon Melkor.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

The fact Sauron could delude himself this way means that he had/obtained a very wrong idea of Eru. Not only Eru's motives and attitudes but of Eru's nature. He thought about Eru as if the latter was somewhat a first among Ainur, not an ultramundane spirit, having all of the universe, Ainur including, existing in his mind.

I think the point is that Sauron assumed Eru no longer cared, not that he thought that Eru's power was in any way limited. Sauron knew Eru's power. He simply did not know his mind, but nonetheless made assumptions about it. As Professor Tolkien states in 'Notes on motives in the Silmarillion', "Sauron was not a 'sincere' atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God's action in Arda)." I don't think Sauron had any doubts about what Eru could do, but he made a number of assumptions about what Eru would do, and not necessarily large ones given how uninvolved Eru apparently was.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Sarumian

The question is when. If it happened before Melkor's final downfall, it is unclear why than Sauron did not abandon Melkor.

I just noticed this and wanted to offer an answer while I had it in mind. There's so much discussion of Sauron on this forum I think it's enlightening to have as much material to hand as possible. To quote "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age" regarding Sauron's behaviour:

"Therefore when Ëonwë departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong."

Sauron was Morgoth's first lieutenant. That does not, however, change the fact that in the heirarchy of Morgoth's 'realm' (such as it was) everyone apart from Morgoth himself, regardless of rank, was Morgoth's slave. On the other hand, we receive no mention, I believe, of any participation on Sauron's part in the Great Battle. So I think Sauron may have been capable of abandoning Morgoth, but that he was so deeply entrenched in evil that this was only really possible at the point where it was a choice between supporting Morgoth and his own survival. Being evil and serving Morgoth (the individual) were not the same thing by the end of the First Age, which I think might go some way to explaining how Sauron persisted with Morgoth until the time came to strike out on his own. Of course, slave or not, for a being as evil as Sauron, and accustomed to a certain lifestyle, being second in command of Morgoth's realm would probably also have been preferable to indefinite ages of service to the Valar in Aman (even before the Great Battle, I mean).

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Of course, slave or not, for a being as evil as Sauron, and accustomed to a certain lifestyle, being second in command of Morgoth's realm would probably also have been preferable to indefinite ages of service to the Valar in Aman (even before the Great Battle, I mean).

I agree with you here. When I first read the first part of "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", I remembered what Satan said in John Milton's poem Paradise Lost to his followers, after their failed rebellion led them to be cast out of Heaven, and into Hell:

Here we may reign secure, and in my choyce
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n. (Book I, lines 161-3)

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

I agree with you here. When I first read the first part of "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", I remembered what Satan said in John Milton's poem Paradise Lost to his followers, after their failed rebellion led them to be cast out of Heaven, and into Hell:

Here we may reign secure, and in my choyce
To reign is worth ambition though in Hell:
Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n. (Book I, lines 161-3)

The Silmarillion seems to make it clear that an aversion to penitently serving the Valar was indeed behind Sauron's failure to take advantage of the opportunity to turn his back on his past.He had had too much power and authority under Morgoth.

As an aside, could something similar be said of Denethor? He was so enamored of his position as de facto ruler of Gondor that he would not entertain the idea of relinquishing power, even to a proven, rightful king. Possibly the influence of Sauron via the Palantíri, enhanced by Denethor's own pride?

[Nikkolas]

Despite what people say about the movies, Tolkien does not seem to particularly like or care about Denethor. I know he addressed him in at least one of the letters I read and he was none too sympathetic, calling him nothing more than a petty tyrant. This is in sharp contrast to how a lot of people online seem to view him ie. as a tragic ruler manipulated by the evil Sauron.

[Nerwen]

Nikkolas, you sound rather as if you think this is some kind of internet mass delusion. . In fact I imagine most are simply going by the character as he appears in the book itself. An author's view of his own work isn't necessarily fixed, anyway.

(Btw, many of us have read Tolkien's letters too.)

[Nikkolas]

I just didn't feel particularly sory for him.He's often cited as the single greatest character screw-up of the movies by book fans but when i got to ROTK a few months ago, I didn't really care for him one way or another. He was just kind of a jerk who made a very problematic situation even more problematic through his jerkiness.

Besides, Gandalf didn't spare a word of sympathy for him either. (in contrast to Saruman)