Glorfindel reincarnated

[cellurdur]

Though Tolkien very rarely makes mistakes, he is usually very accurate and precise when using terms like Eldar.

Glorfindel did not remain in Middle Earth and Elrond was not one of the Eldar. Nor was Arwen.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Elrond was not one of the Eldar. Nor was Arwen.

Despite being born in Middle-earth, Elrond was an Elda, as his father was half-Noldo and his mother was descended from Luthien (who was the daughter of Thingol, who was counted among the Eldar despite spending little time in Aman).
At least, this is how I have always understood the situation.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Despite being born in Middle-earth, Elrond was an Elda, as his father was half-Noldo and his mother "half-Luthien" as it were (who was the daughter of Thingol, who was counted among the Eldar despite spending little time in Aman).
At least, this is how I have always understood the situation.

Tolkien more than once explicitly states that Arwen and Elrond were not part of the Eldar, but Half-elven. Even in LOTR you will notice that Elrond is never grouped together with elves. Even his sons, who are over 3/4 elvish are kept separate from elves.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

Tolkien more than once explicitly states that Arwen and Elrond were not part of the Eldar, but Half-elven. Even in LOTR you will notice that Elrond is never grouped together with elves. Even his sons, who are over 3/4 elvish are kept separate from elves.

That Elrond and Arwen are always called “Half-elven” makes sense, considering the different destinies of Elves and Men. But where does Tolkien explicitly state that neither Elrond or Arwen were not in any sense Eldar? In their genealogical origins Elrond and Arwen were part Maia. So of course Tolkien would not generally state that Elrond was an Elda pure and simple, because he wasn’t. Tolkien does mention that Elrond preferred to trace his descent from Thingol rather than from Eärendil and Elwing.

You appear to me to be over-emphasizing that the name Half-elven (Pereldar) is different from Elven (Eldar), something no-one has denied. Why do you wish to emphasize this difference is if it matters for the purpose of this discussion of Glorfindel?

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by jallanite

That Elrond and Arwen are always called “Half-elven” makes sense, considering the different destinies of Elves and Men. But where does Tolkien explicitly state that neither Elrond or Arwen were not in any sense Eldar? In their genealogical origins Elrond and Arwen were part Maia. So of course Tolkien would not generally state that Elrond was an Elda pure and simple, because he wasn’t. Tolkien does mention that Elrond preferred to trace his descent from Thingol rather than from Eärendil and Elwing.

You appear to me to be over-emphasizing that the name Half-elven (Pereldar) is different from Elven (Eldar), something no-one has denied. Why do you wish to emphasize this difference is if it matters for the purpose of this discussion of Glorfindel?

Tolkien states emphatically that Arwen was not one of the Eldar.

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights"-Letter 345

Another example is Arwen tells Aragorn the children of Elrond have the life of the Eldar. They are not part of the Eldar.

"Do not wonder! For the children of Elrond have the life of the Eldar."-LOTR

It was just an example of how Tolkien is usually very precise with the words he uses. Glorfindel was not one of the elves, who remained in ME, but returned to help in the fight against Sauron. So it would be wrong to place him alongside the other elves that did stay.

[Willemijn]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Not to split hairs, but in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age Tolkien said of Galadriel:

A queen she was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth.

That's of those who remained in the 3rd Age. While she was also the mightiest of the female Eldar, which makes her veritably angelic in power, it's quite another matter to say she was at the very pinnacle of the all-time list of mighty Eldar. Feanor made the Silmarils. He also fought (and presumably beat) several balrogs before being killed by Gothmog. Fingolfin fought and wounded Morgoth, himself. Eärendil killed Ancalagon. At least four of Feanor's seven sons, and a few more elves would likely rank ahead of her in power.

That's not to diminish or demean her in any fashion, by the way- I'm a big fan of Galadriel's particularly feminine brand of latent power.

But exactly that Tolkien hinted at, when saying that Galadriel and Feanor were the greatest of the Eldar of Aman. I don´t think it was limited to the age of the trees but more a general statement why else mentionig Luthien as the greatest overall and stating that these three are the chief matter of histories and legends of the Eldar. I assume everyone knows the quote, otherwise I will search for it and post it properly.

At least four of Feanor's seven sons, and a few more elves would likely rank ahead of her in power.

Why, because she´s female? Maybe in power of arms, but much more important (to me at least) is the spirital power. Maybe she wouldn´t win in a swords fight but sure in a duell of song ( her brother was able to do it, and she was greater than him) and not to forget the incident at Dol Goldur, were she was able to laid bare it´s pits.

One has to wonder what exactly makes her the equal of Feanor and the greatest besides him, I don´t think it is only her wisedom, for Feanor was not wise at all, so it´s not hard to be wiser than him.

Regarding the topic theme, while Glorfindels power was greatly enhanced, I still see no evidence that he is spiritually more potent or "greater" than Galadriel.

Tolkien never stated it explicitly that Glorfindel was the greatest or mightiest in something, only that he was almost equal to a Maia, I think that applies to other elves like Feanor, Fingolfon or Finrod (if we look at their deeds) and Galadriel as well.

Tolkien however stated several times Galadriel being extraordinary among the Eldar.

Be it her hair, her marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others or her commanding stature already in Valinor (and that while still being the youngst Noldor princess, with her brothers and uncles, cousins and of course her father/grandfathers around. Sure all the royals had something to say, but the fact that in Galadriels case it is mentioned so explicitly makes me believe that she was indeed as respected as Feanor was).

In respect to Glorfindel and Galadriel, they were never compared, so one can only assume. The Witchking was afraid of Glorfindel so he was of Galadriel. (there is something along the lines that he would not dare to enter Lorien yet and face the white ring and Lorien would anyway stand unless Sauron would come in person.

Of Glorfindel it is said that

his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice

of Galadriel it is said that she is

unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit)

So while Glorfindel has much spiritual power, Galadriel has more, cause she is unconquerable in that matter.

I don´t get is, it always seems as if Galadriels talents must be somehow limited because she is female, always when it is discussed on why she is called greatest besides Feanor it is argued that she is only greatest among elven women or that her greatnes is wisedom.

IMHO Tolkien made it pretty clear who the 3 greatest of Erus children are (greatnes for me includes spiritual might, the ability to do magic, Finrod singing songs of power, Luthien putting Morgoth to sleep for example, besides other things) and that are Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel. In that order.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Willemijn

But exactly that Tolkien hinted at, when saying that Galadriel and Feanor were the greatest of the Eldar of Aman. I don´t think it was limited to the age of the trees but more a general statement why else mentionig Luthien as the greatest overall and stating that these three are the chief matter of histories and legends of the Eldar. I assume everyone knows the quote, otherwise I will search for it and post it properly.



Why, because she´s female? Maybe in power of arms, but much more important (to me at least) is the spirital power. Maybe she wouldn´t win in a swords fight but sure in a duell of song ( her brother was able to do it, and she was greater than him) and not to forget the incident at Dol Goldur, were she was able to laid bare it´s pits.

One has to wonder what exactly makes her the equal of Feanor and the greatest besides him, I don´t think it is only her wisedom, for Feanor was not wise at all, so it´s not hard to be wiser than him.

Regarding the topic theme, while Glorfindels power was greatly enhanced, I still see no evidence that he is spiritually more potent or "greater" than Galadriel.

Tolkien never stated it explicitly that Glorfindel was the greatest or mightiest in something, only that he was almost equal to a Maia, I think that applies to other elves like Feanor, Fingolfon or Finrod (if we look at their deeds) and Galadriel as well.

Tolkien however stated several times Galadriel being extraordinary among the Eldar.

Be it her hair, her marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others or her commanding stature already in Valinor (and that while still being the youngst Noldor princess, with her brothers and uncles, cousins and of course her father/grandfathers around. Sure all the royals had something to say, but the fact that in Galadriels case it is mentioned so explicitly makes me believe that she was indeed as respected as Feanor was).

In respect to Glorfindel and Galadriel, they were never compared, so one can only assume. The Witchking was afraid of Glorfindel so he was of Galadriel. (there is something along the lines that he would not dare to enter Lorien yet and face the white ring and Lorien would anyway stand unless Sauron would come in person.

Of Glorfindel it is said that of Galadriel it is said that she is

So while Glorfindel has much spiritual power, Galadriel has more, cause she is unconquerable in that matter.

I don´t get is, it always seems as if Galadriels talents must be somehow limited because she is female, always when it is discussed on why she is called greatest besides Feanor it is argued that she is only greatest among elven women or that her greatnes is wisedom.

IMHO Tolkien made it pretty clear who the 3 greatest of Erus children are (greatnes for me includes spiritual might, the ability to do magic, Finrod singing songs of power, Luthien putting Morgoth to sleep for example, besides other things) and that are Luthien, Feanor and Galadriel. In that order.

Galadriel's power certainly seems to be above all the other Noldor princes/ladies with the exception of Feanor, Earendil and maybe Finrod.

That being said Glorfindel is a very special case and the quotes about him put him in his own league. Before his death, Galadriel was probably a greater power, but not after he returned.

Glorfindel having the special responsibility of being sent back to help against Sauron speaks volumes for his power. Even Tolkien had to explain exactly why he had an air of power so unique for an elf.

Luthien with her divine heritage stands alone.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Willemijn

But exactly that Tolkien hinted at, when saying that Galadriel and Feanor were the greatest of the Eldar of Aman. I don´t think it was limited to the age of the trees but more a general statement why else mentionig Luthien as the greatest overall and stating that these three are the chief matter of histories and legends of the Eldar. I assume everyone knows the quote, otherwise I will search for it and post it properly.

The quote I copied specified the Third Age, not "of all time". You'll have to dig up the quote.

Why, because she´s female?

So many people reflexively go here. (Sigh...)

You might have missed where I've declared myself a Galadriel fan, btw.

Maybe in power of arms, but much more important (to me at least) is the spirital power. Maybe she wouldn´t win in a swords fight but sure in a duell of song ( her brother was able to do it, and she was greater than him) and not to forget the incident at Dol Goldur, were she was able to laid bare it´s pits.

Well, more important to you. However, arms comprise one aspect of power, wisdom another, crafting another, and song/magic yet another. Taken together, she doesn't reach the peak of the pyramid occupied by some others.

One has to wonder what exactly makes her the equal of Feanor and the greatest besides him, I don´t think it is only her wisedom, for Feanor was not wise at all, so it´s not hard to be wiser than him.

It depends on your definition of wisdom, I would say. In terms of knowledge and lore, he had the ability to craft the Silmarils. 'Nuff said. However, if you limit the definition of wisdom to mere common sense, then he's lacking.

Tolkien however stated several times Galadriel being extraordinary among the Eldar.

And so she is extraordinary. No doubt about it. I agree 100%.

You asserted, however, that "she [Galadriel], Feanor, and Luthien were the greatest of the elves in the history of Arda". That's a bit different than being extraordinary.